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Key Points
Personal Development and Mindset
- The Power of Mindset
Believing in your ability to achieve your goals is crucial.
“You can become anything you want, as long as you are willing to work for it.“ - The Importance of Practice
Consistent practice is key to developing skills and achieving mastery. - The Role of Mentorship
Seeking guidance from experienced individuals can accelerate personal and professional growth. Mentor others and seek mentorship from others to continue learning and growing. - Embracing Failure
Failure is a natural part of the learning process. - The Value of Vulnerability
Sharing vulnerabilities can build stronger connections and foster empathy.
Work-Life Balance and Stress Management
- The Importance of Physical Health
Engaging in physical activities like exercise can improve mental health and reduce stress. - The Power of Nature
Spending time in nature can help alleviate stress and provide perspective. - The Value of Mindfulness and Meditation
Practicing mindfulness can help you stay focused and manage stress. - The Importance of Time Management
Prioritize tasks and avoid overcommitting yourself. - The Art of Delegation
Don’t try to do everything yourself. Delegate tasks to others and trust their abilities.
Leadership and Human Connection
- Leadership Philosophy
When building a team, you need to focus on adding team members that complement each other’s skills.
Believes in empowering people, setting ambitious goals, and fostering a collaborative work environment. Emphasizes the importance of learning from failures and embracing challenges. - Inspiration and Motivation
Draws inspiration from various sources, including successful individuals, personal experiences, and a strong belief in the power of hard work and dedication. - Overcoming Challenges
Highlights the importance of perseverance, adaptability, and seeking support from others during difficult times. - Empathy and Understanding
Put yourself in others’ shoes and try to understand their perspectives. - The Power of Communication
Effective communication is essential for building strong relationships and resolving conflicts. - The Importance of Trust
Create a safe and supportive environment where people feel comfortable being vulnerable.
Life Philosophy
- The Meaning of Life
Live a life of purpose, kindness, and service to others. - The Importance of Human Connection
Build strong relationships with others and cherish those connections. - The Power of Gratitude
Be grateful for what you have and focus on the positive aspects of life. - The Pursuit of Knowledge
Stay curious. Never stop learning and growing.
Transcript
Intro
“I want to learn I want to know how things work never stop learning.“
“At that University I learned that everything is possible.“
“You can actually become anything you want, as long as you want are willing to work for it.”
“Some is good at doing A. Some is good at doing B. But, we need all we need the full alphabet.”
“I prefer working with fun people than smart people, to be honest.”
“…had focus on security that was a much bigger scope, a much broader canvas to work on and I felt it was an infinite amount of technical challenges.“
Joachim’s Intro of the Guest
Today’s guest is Jan Erik Søndeland.
He’s a dedicated professional with significant management experience within tech, military and politics.
He has served as an Officer, military combat instructor and platoon commander in the Norwegian Armed Forces. Jan Erik has also been a politician, serving in the city council of Stavanger (the 4th largest city in Norway). Here he was the leader, main spokesperson and also a mayoral candidate for the Liberal Party (“Venstre”) in twenty-nineteen.
He’s passionate about climate, education and better care for the vulnerable groups in society.
Since twenty-twenty-one, he’s been the CEO and co-founder of the Norwegian cybersecurity startup Ivolv. In this role, he is spearheading the company’s mission to demystify cybersecurity and help organizations build effective protection and resilience against cyber attacks.
…and now dear friends, my conversation with Jan Erik Søndeland.
The Podcast
[edited for clarity and brevity]
Joachim: How are you?
Jan Erik: I’m fine thanks.
Joachim: I know you’re a busy guy, now as a CEO of Ivolv, but let’s take it from the start. You originally come from Sola and went to NTNU to study Communications Technology (Com. Tech). What led you down that path?
Jan Erik: Oh, you know, I’ve always been fascinated by technology. I think one big moment was when I heard that it was possible to have an internet connection all around the clock. As much as you wanted. For some reason it was suddenly possible to have, not a dial-up or ISDN/modems, but through the same cable we had in our street! Certainly by some kind of magic it was possible to be always connected without disturbing the phone calls. Then I started thinking how is that even possible. I couldn’t imagine or picture how it was possible to access to infinite amount of internet to download MP3s and all kinds of stuff. I think that was the spark that sent me in the direction of communication technology studies later.
Joachim: All right, all right. Why did you choose that school over the other ones?
Jan Erik: I think many things in my life has been a bit coincidental. A good friend of mine had decided to go there. He was going to study geology and and petroleum science. He kind of told me that’s the best school in the country. I barely had heard about it, because those kind topics were really not much on the dinner table in my parents home. When he told me that, I started thinking and checking. Seems like a good University. And, of course, I didn’t want to lose touch with one of my best friends. I heard other people as well were going up there, so then I applied. That was really the reason.
I think I realized after starting there, how how an amazing University it really is. A bit coincidental, but also maybe made in the stars… I don’t know.
Joachim: All right. A lot of good things comes out of coincidences.
What would you say was the key takeaways from your five years of studying, and would you have done things differently looking back at it now?
Jan Erik: I think very often people say no I wouldn’t, but there’s always some kind of small things… You hit crossroads all the time. All in all, I think I’m very happy about the way it turned out.
One big takeaway was all the people I met. Amazing people. Bright students. Fun people. I think I can say that at that University I learned that everything is possible. I met some amazing classmates who had already been doing tremendous achievements before starting at University. Who I think really just told me that you can actually become anything you want as long as you’re willing to work for it. That is a big takeaway! I think realizing that no matter how small you feel, or what what kind of small place you come, from it’s just about hard work. We’re all human beings, with two feet and two arms, and as long as you use your head wisely, I think anything is imaginable.
Joachim: Definitely a great takeaway.
Perhaps you could take us through your next career steps after University. What led you to make the choices that you did, and what led you onwards to each new job in the years that followed?
Jan Erik: That’s a big question. Depending how much time we have here. I think let’s start off with my first professional job, which was in Accenture. It’s a technology company. They’re worldwide present. Also here in Norway. I had a summer internship with them, the last summer before graduating. They really fascinated me. By the way, they seemed professional and like they knew technology. They had a very professional approach to how they take in graduates. They have mentoring programs, etc. I figured I want to apply for that stuff. During the summer internship, I got a really good impression. Worked with real projects with smart/clever/intelligent and even more senior people than myself. In the end, they offered me to start there. A year later, when I was graduating. I said yes and didn’t regret that.
A very good starting place for a graduate learning to become a professional, an adult, and also deliver on your commitments. A good place. That was a good start in the professional work life.
Joachim: What happened then?
Jan Erik: I was put on a project for a big Telecom company in Norway. We were working on introducing a new service discipline. That was an IP technology, IP TV in fact. My role in that was to help out with business processes. Enabling sales. Enabling service delivery. Supporting all the technicians in rolling out the services. In that I found myself between people and technology. Trying to translate technology into something understandable for even end-users. Setting of processes.
I felt I was too distant from the technology. I studied technology five years in the University, but I’m not hands-on. I’m just on top of the wave, and kind of pointing direction, but I’m not really in hands deep myself. I felt I was missing that a bit. Long story short: that made me leave Accenture, as they didn’t really focus on those technologies that was my highest interest.
Joachim: That makes sense.
Jan Erik: Then, I started working for the national TSO (Transmissions System Operator: Statnett), the big Norwegian energy company that is transmitting power across the country and connecting all the utilities. My main task there was really to be the security department’s focal point on a new project they ran to replace the whole power grid system. The whole SCADA system, which control up and down voltages, they measure how much electricity is going back and forth. Load balance. Everything like that. Of course, if you have control of that, that would be quite interesting to someone who want to make problems for the Norwegian state, or cause disruptions.
Today I think cybersecurity is something many of us are aware of, but that was back in 2010-2012. At that time, it was a high focus in the Norwegian power company, so that was a big learning path for me.
Joachim: But then you moved on from that company as well.
Jan Erik: You have your roots, I’m a guy who loves my family. I have roots with both family and friends there on the southwest coast of Norway, in the Stavanger region. I figured that I spent 4-5 years in Oslo. I want to kind of try to turn my direction towards Stavanger.
Ever since I started studying communication technology, I had this big plan: one day I’ll become someone important, or someone who has an impact in the local energy company that was called Lyse Energy, or Altibox. They (Lyse) had a telecom department that was doing some really groundbreaking stuff on technology PITV for example, but also on fiber technology. So, I had this little kid in me that one day wanted to maybe work there, with that technology.
I contacted them myself. I’m planning to move home to Stavanger, is there any chance you need someone like me? Again, coincidentally I think they had a need for a new person on their engineering team on IPTV. So, coming back to my home hometown, working on IPTV. Now, I had a chance. I’m all in. They could have given me the lowest salary, I would have joined anyway. That was fun.
Joachim: What a great way to follow your passion, ey!
Jan Erik: I think for me, it’s never been about salary or position, or anything like that. I want to learn. I want to know how things work. Of course I want to work with fun people. I prefer working with fun people, [rather] than smart people, to be honest. Anyone can be smart, but I want to have a nice life. I want to have a good time at work too. As all my previous employers, also in Altibox and Lyse there was amazing colleagues there. Amazing. They still doing so good. Amazing results every year. They impressed me all the time.
Then I had two years there before realizing once more that I feel the IPTV technology isn’t that fascinating for me anymore. That might sound a bit arrogant. That’s not the point, but I felt the Norwegian TSO (Statnett) I was working for previously, where I had focus on security, that was a much bigger scope. A much broader canvas to work on. I felt it was an infinite amount of technical challenges. So, that led me to look for something else. Then I ended up in Cegal, which is an IT service provider specializing mostly in the energy sector, and notably the oil and gas sector in Norway (and globally). Then, I got to come back to my starting profession. I got to work with securing oil and gas rigs from cyber attacks and such.
Again, amazing people. Some of which are still my colleagues today in my current company, Ivolv. That adventure started in 2021. I spent 7-8 years in Cegal and in 2021 some of my former colleagues had decided to quit Cegal and start their own venture on cyber security. I was so lucky to be asked to join them and as the CEO and co-founder. I was invited to join from the first day. I’m very grateful for that opportunity and also humbled by the fact that asked me to become the CEO. I never imagined to be something like that ever in my life. But just like I learned through my life so far, I think anything is possible. It’s not magic you know. It’s just a lot of common sense. You use your ears more than your mouth. Listen to your customers. Listen to deeply to your colleagues. Value their opinions. Try to strike the smooth balance taking us forward.
That’s been three years now. An amazing journey so far. I’m still still learning.
Joachim: It seems like a really exciting adventure. But you’ve also had other adventures. For instance you’ve spent some time in politics. At what time did you get into politics, and how did this come about? What motivated you to choose that path?
Jan Erik: My passion. When I see something that I feel is wrong or suboptimal, I get this inner urge to to try to fix it, or tell someone else can you fix it. Who’s in charge of this? I cannot sit still and just watch a ball rolling down between the chairs.
Joachim: I can really relate to that.
Jan Erik: Coming back to when I moved to Stavanger from Oslo. In Oslo I had been using public transport every day. Commuting on the metro, I read books, listened to podcasts. Maybe even had my little breakfast pack along, and feeling so effective. I was environmentally friendly on my commute. It was just an amazing way of living in a large city.
Then I got back here to the Stavanger region, and I find myself having to move myself 16 km from Sola, where I was living in the start, to Mariero which is a district in Stavanger where the Lyse headquarters is located. I want to travel by public transport. To do that, I would have to take 2 or 3 buses. That’s ridiculous for 16-17 km. That turned into an hour of travel each way! When you can drive for 20 min the same distance, you do the math. I can be climate friendly and all, but you have to make the logistics work.
Joachim: Absolutely.
Jan Erik: That frustrated me a bit. I started thinking: should I move into the city center? Stuff like that. No, I think there something wrong here in the region. I think we’ve been planning the city suboptimal. Then I was discussing with my friend (the one who told me that NTNU was the best University in Norway) in a car ride, along with and another guy. We had been in a traffic jam. It was a Sunday. We’re driving home from from a cabin trip. We’re stuck in traffic and a discussion started. Here we are again wasting our time along with thousands of other people. Wow is it possible? We cannot even construct a road that is giving room for this very predictable traffic. We all know it’s going to happen every Sunday, and every Friday. Then I added: what I want is to travel climate friendly, but it’s not possible. It’s not possible to live the lifestyle I just did in Oslo and how has it become like this..? I asked and they suggested that it must be the politicians. But who are these politicians really? None of us were involved or paid much attention to local or regional politics.
One of us came up with the name Christine Sagen Helgø. She was the mayor of Stavanger at that time, and she was the only one we actually knew the name of. Maybe that said a bit about us, but I also think it’s a glimpse into how out of touch the population might be, or might not be, with who’s actually in the local government.
I think Christine Sagen Helgø is probably a very wise politician, but there must be someone else too. It can’t be all her fault. There must be someone else…
We’re not the most dumb people on Earth, are we? The guys in the car. “Oh, no. No. We’re not.” [Consider] whoever is in the city council right now, don’t you think there’s a chance we might have some good ideas, or fresh points [of view]? Or, why shouldn’t we be part of the discussion? Maybe in the city council? Why not? Let’s get in and… “No, no, no. Now you’re getting too serious,” they said, and we changed the topic. But then, I was back home and started thinking: “hmm, why not? I mean it’s just normal people who’s elected into the city council, even the Parliament. Someone has to raise their hand and instead of just sitting at home in your couch and complain. Try to sacrifice some hours yourself and see if you can do anything.”
That was a bit of a long story about my entry. Then I contacted some political parties. I didn’t even know what party I was myself, because I’ve been voting different things before that point. Then I did some more analysis and found that the Liberal Party of Norway, “Venstre” is the Norwegian name. That was really my party. I’m all in on their political standpoints. Then I became a member, and that was the start.
Joachim: Very interesting. I think this takes us a bit further into, who are your sources of inspiration? We’ve never really talked about this, I think, but I would be very curious to know who inspires you the most and and why?
Jan Erik: There’s so many people. I find inspiration in my newest employee in my company right now. It could be Henning who is a senior in that he’s like in his 40-50s. It could be in the graduate that just started with us, Thomas. The way they approach things. The way they take on any tasks that might sound boring for a seasoned professional, but for them it’s [handled with] positivity. That is inspiration for me.
My classmate in University (NTNU), in Trondheim. I remember he told me when he was in middle school, his teacher told him you will never amount to anything. He was a bit of this guy that interrupted in the classroom. He was not paying much attention.
Joachim: A troublemaker..?
Jan Erik: Well, probably not the worst. He had so much energy in his body. He wanted to do something else than just sit in the classroom. When she (the teacher) had told him: “You will never become amount to anything.” That provoked something in him, and he thought to himself: “I’m going to show her.” He used that incident as motivation to become the best. He went all in on the officer training school in the Norwegian Army. Became the best officer candidate. He got to choose wherever he wanted to go. Nailed it. Was a professional soldier. Then he went to the university. He wasn’t the most academic person, who nailed straight A’s in all subjects, but he worked hard. When I played football with him, I saw how much he worked on the football field. He wasn’t the most talented football player, but he had passion. He had energy and went all in on with his abilities, and that is inspirational to me.
There are so many people I can draw a inspiration from, but let’s take Barack Obama. I think he’s a tremendous speaker. The way he gives speeches is inspirational. I read a biography of him (Obama). A long one. So detailed. It gave me insights into the whole Barack Obama person. From his childhood, coming into politics and what drove him. Again, I think that was just a normal guy who had something he wanted to achieve. He worked for it. I think that’s also inspiration [to me].
I could mention numerous more, but…
Joachim: Yes, absolutely. So energy, passion and determination. Along with the idea that anything is possible seems to be sort of key ideas, or key feelings, that resonate with you.
Jan Erik: Absolutely.
Joachim: You’ve been involved in a lot of different things. We’ve talked about some of them, but what would you say is the biggest challenge you’ve faced and how did you overcome it?
Jan Erik: I think I’ve had many challenges. It depends a bit what part of life you want to dive into. It could be personal challenges. It could be professional challenges. Physical challenges. The list is long. Let’s take the personal first.
I think about my first breakup. I was dumped. That was a challenge. I had never imagined such a thing could happen. That was just for the movies. That really sent me down in the basement for some time. Then I talked with some amazing friends. My parents who supported me. I think when you hit bottom like that, and you take the time… For me, it’s always been helpful to talk with people when big incidents happen, to refresh your mind. Get some new perspectives. Then the growing starts. Then you grow as a person. That felt like a big challenge at the time, but looking back [at it] now, it’s just [a] part of life.
Let’s take physical challenges. In the military, we had tough exercises. Freezing. Being very cold in the middle of [the] night. Sleep deprived. Barely seeing anything. It could be raining. Pitch black. Someone falls and injures themselves, and you feel a bit hopeless. Then you [start thinking]: “Why am I doing this? What’s the point? I could’ve been home.”
Joachim: What keeps you going in those moments?
Jan Erik: I want to see if I can do it. I’m sure someone’s going to take care of me if I fall. It’s going to be fine. It’s going to be all fine no matter how things turn out. I know life is a journey, so I think it’s it’s fun to just get through it [such challenges]. I think I’m starting to appreciate that [more] as I get older. These downturns is nothing [in the grand scheme of things]. It won’t kill you. It’s just an opportunity for learning, reflecting and growing as a person.
I’ve also had things in politics, definitely. I think that has been the arena where I’ve really learned how to relate to all kinds of people, with all kinds of motivations. [I’ve learned how to] maneuver in in a world where you have to be a bit cautious, I guess. I wouldn’t say you have to watch your back, but people have different motivations. It’s all coming from a good place. I have to add that. I would say 99% of all politicians are there for the right reasons. Trust me. They’re there to really create a positive impact to their society locally, nationally or worldwide. But, the means to get to the position to actually do that change, or impact… Sometimes there’s an opportunity to take a shortcut. I have been facing crossroads where I could’ve taken [a different path], but that would have been against my values. I’m never going to backstab a friend. No. I can’t do that.
Coming back to challenges. I’ve been part of nomination processes for different candidates trying to to get lifted up as high as possible on the candidate list, [and] that can be a bit tough and brutal. But nothing you die of. It’s is just part of that game. If you keep that in mind, I think you don’t drain yourself in the challenge.
Lastly, in my job now. You know, being a CEO of a startup, is giving you different challenges at different points in time. The first day, [the focus is]: “How do we get income at all? How do we finance ourself? How do we get food on the table for the few people we are?” Then we grow. You employ new people. You feel maybe even more for them (the new employees). They were not part of the initial group, so they really need to be taken care of. They need to have their salary. They need to have job safety. Then as [the] organization increase in size, you need to create structure [and] processes. Maybe someone needs to [be] relieved [of] some of their responsibilities? Splitting up and sharing that (responsibilities) can be challenging for some. But, as long as we talk well together, we understand each other, are open, create a space of safety where you can actually speak your mind… No matter what person you speak to, what level or who it is, what background or history they have, as long as we feel safe talking to each other, I think we all have common sense, so then we solve things.
Joachim: I think this is a good segue into my next question, which is: How do you handle criticism? …and I will imagine that in a lot of the different situations you’ve been in from politics, and now building a company from the ground up through Ivolv, there will be a lot of disagreements along the way, and people will have their opinions. So, for you, how do you handle criticism?
Jan Erik: Well, I think I have a two-sided answer to that. I think I have to be honest and say… I think everyone should be honest in this. I think it’s the same for most people. Getting criticized for something if you put your effort into [it]… You did your what you felt was the best you could, and then you’re criticized for it that doesn’t feel really good. It’s a bit uncomfortable. But then I think as we mature and get older, we appreciate [it] more and more [and view it] as [an] opportunity to learn. If for [instance there are] 10 people in the room, and there’s only one person who is criticizing you for something, I assume this person [have] actually felt there was something suboptimal [seen] from that person’s perspective. They might not [know] all the reasons why you said, or did what you did, or why the result [turned out] like that, but I think it’s a signal of something that you can improve. You can agree or disagree, but I think I appreciate more and more these signals. I really want to always make sure everyone in the room/hall feels that I’m doing my best to fulfill what they they expect from me.
I’m not perfect at all. Not at all. I will never be. I think [that] no one will ever be, but we can all at least promise to do our best, and be humble, and hail criticism because that is [an] opportunity for growth.
Joachim: Absolutely. I would say that feedback is key, and it seems like you’re incorporating those kind of feedbacks [criticism] quite well.
How do you define success, and has your definition changed over time would you say? Perhaps you can describe a moment that changed your perspective in that regard?
Jan Erik: Yeah, help me back on track if I pivot off now. I think [it] definitely must have changed over time. I think when I was a kid, [I] probably had [defined] success as [being] on the national team in football. Or, someone who held some kind of position, or had a billon in the bank deposit. But now I think, for me, success is a combination of two things: It is your effort. The ability or willingness to be determined towards some kind of goal, and then also striving/working hard towards that goal. If that gives you the gold medal, or the silver medal, is not really important. But [the fact that] you went for it.
Of course people will say: “Erling Braut Håland (a Norwegian football player) he’s successful. Yes, he is. He’s an amazing football player. But I’m sure he has been working for it. He probably [had] some good DNA from his father, who was also a professional footballer, but there’s a lot of professional footballers who’s got kids that are no successful. So, there’s no free lunch!
For me success [is] setting a goal and going for it. I think I would also like to add, I don’t care at all if you hit the first spot or the last spot, the only thing I care about is that you’re willing to set yourself a goal and that you’re willing to fail. The amount of failure you do, I think, says much more about you than the amount of success. If you’re willing to fail, be vulnerable, try out things, that is success for me. Go for things. Don’t be shy. Don’t be afraid. Everyone fails. I fail, you fail, everyone fail. It’s not dangerous. It’s part of life.
Joachim: It definitely resonates. It [has] a lot [to do with] the willingness to pursue what you actually want to do, and then do it ferociously through dedication and hard work. Give it your best shot!
I think this is also a good link into talking about failure, or apparent failure, and how that can set you up for later success. What role does failure play in success in your view, and perhaps there’s a lesson you’ve had from a certain failure that perhaps was a step in the right direction towards a later success that you can share.
Jan Erik: One time as a student, I was assigned as leader of a theater group. I lived in a student dorm [that] was more like a old German officer villa, that had been turned into student dorms in Trondheim. They had a yearly event called “Helga” (the weekend). It was a yearly weekend of partying and cultural things that happened. It was going to be a play in a theater setup, for all the people who came [to the “Helga” event]. I wanted to try out acting. [I’ve] never done that before, so [why] not give it a go. I was the new guy and somehow they decided [that] I was going to be the leader of it. But, I had no idea how to make a play. I had no clue at all.
I think I was a freshman at the school. I felt a bit small [among] all these older students. One guy was a massive guitar player. Another guy was a singer. They had all these talents. I felt I had nothing. So, I think I became a bit passive. They had been making these plays many years [prior], and they seemed to have some kind of plan. My leadership was horrible. I’d say: “Let’s meet up next Sunday and we’ll see if we have any ideas.” There was not [many] ideas, and things [slided]. I was a bit busy going to the gym, and I wasn’t all in on this theater thing. I was kind of managing it, without managing. Then I remember feeling it getting closer to the day we were going to perform. [I felt that] I didn’t have control. I barely knew all these people. I think there was one time [when] I realized that I was off track because one of the members came to me and criticized [me]: “What are you doing? There’s nothing happening here! There’s no organization.”
Then, I needed to gather the people. We need to make some kind of a better plan. We need to design tasks. Then suddenly it switched on. But, I felt [that] this was a very bad way of introducing myself to all these new people. Apparently they’re frustrated, or some of them were at least, and I think I got my grips on. But, I will never forget when that girl, [that] fellow student, came to me and kind of lashed out on me [about] how horrible my management was. I think she was right.
I’ve been trying to look back, and [remind myself that] I can never be as unprepared as that again. I need to be planning things. Setting scheduled timelines. Delegating and follow-up. I think I just assumed people did things, but they didn’t you know. So, I had to be managing more. Not just: “Let’s meet up in two weeks.” No, no.
Joachim: Good lessons learned there. What do you think are the key factors that have contributed to your success. Definitely learning from past failures as you’ve mentioned, and perhaps you could also share what has been the most important habit that you’ve developed in your life that has contributed to successful endeavors for you?
Jan Erik: Probably one thing could be taking notes. I love notes. If I read something, discuss something with anyone… Could be on a bus. In a grocery store. At work, or somewhere else. In the gym. I write it down. I can’t go around and remember everything. Calendar and notes makes me remember everything. It seems like I remember everything, but of course I wouldn’t without these tools.
Sometimes I feel writing things down by hand also helps to kind of orchestrate things in your head. Visualization is a bit better on paper. I know we have all these amazing digital tools now, but for me it sometimes helps to get my eyes off the screen and on a piece of paper. Just a big piece of paper. I actually have an A3 sheet of white paper on my desk, and I write notes there. Small tasks and sometimes I take a photo of it. Just not to lose certain stuff. It’s about structure and organizing your time. Remembering things.
I think that became clear in my mind at the University. I saw how my fellow students were doing things. They were so structured. Amazing people. I learned a lot indirectly just by watching them. I think I took on some of the things myself, and I think that’s part of the answer at least.
Joachim: It’s definitely a great way to learn things quickly. To pick up good habits from other people who seem to be on the right track, that you can can get inspired by and take on their approaches. Absolutely.
We’ve touched on this briefly earlier, and we’ve talked about leadership when you mentioned your experience from that theater group. What would you say is your philosophy on leadership? And how has that developed over the years?
Jan Erik: It’s still developing. I learned you have to adjust yourself to the environment you operate. An easy example is the football pitch. If you’re captain, you have to be a bit direct, and command. Give quite straight messages. You don’t have time for a lot of discussion.
In the military it’s very strict. Time is of the essence. There are some ranks you need to follow. Orders, that’s how it is. But, if you work in a volunteer organization, or even a political organization, you need to get people to follow you. Then you can’t command. No, you can’t. Well, maybe in some very few occasions, but it’s more [about] making people believe. I think philosophically it’s having people believe in themselves. Because every human being is an amazing person. Every colleague. Every member of my organization is an amazing asset. Some are good at doing A. Some are good good at doing B, but we need all. We need the full alphabet.
I think setting some audacious goals. Some hairy goals. Making them believe in that. If you’re a political party, it doesn’t make sense that we are like X percentage in support. “When we talk to people, it seems like every second person we talk to actually agree with our politics. So there is tremendous potential here. We just need to get ourself out there more. I’m sure. I’m confident. I know, because I know people like you, Joachim. I know [that] if you go and just hand out brochures, they’re going to like you. They’re going to like the way you talk about our politics. If you do your thing with him. Then Matilda is doing her thing, and then Mike is doing his thing. Together we’re a team, and we are going to lift together.”
I think that is the way we need to approach things in a political organization. At work. At home with your kids. You are a team. We can make great experiences together. If you go hiking. If you go on a vacation. Even making dinner. I think making people feel they’re part of something. It’s not about “making them feel”… They ARE a part of it. It’s not you should read a book, [and it tells you] “I need to make them believe…” No. You have to sincerely believe [it] yourself. That they will make this work with you. Then, I think it comes naturally.
When I started to believe anything is possible myself, based on experiences of my fellow classmates, based [on] reading books about Barack Obama or anyone else. Read any biography. All the famous people you know of, started as someone normal. Just like the next door neighbor. They just decided and set off [in] some direction. We can do it. We can. It’s just about [whether] you are willing to contribute. Are you willing to do the job? Have fun along the way? I think that is my leadership philosophy.
Joachim: I love that. I think let’s shift gears a little bit.
What is one of the best, or most worthwhile, investments you ever made in terms of time or money.
Jan Erik: It could be a simple thing as my watch to record my health status. Heart rate, etc. It kind of watches over me. If I don’t train [it] starts complaining a bit. [It can] even record push-ups. My lap distance. Having this little fella on my [wrist]. It could be a costly watch, but compared to the health benefits I think it’s one of the best purchases I’ve made.
Joachim: Like your own little assistant.
Jan Erik: Yeah, kind of.
Time… I think it’s a big question at so many levels. I think [the] time you invest with people. What is really life? For me it’s about experiences. Bonds. The world consists of human beings. Each with their own little story. Decisions. Crossroads. Something that went wrong. Something that went right. I think investing time in getting to know new people, but also getting to know the people you already care about more deeply.
I like to talk about “What’s your favorite football team?” and stuff like that, but I want to go deeper if possible. I want to [know] what really motivates you and why. Talking about failures is interesting because opening up and being a bit fragile and vulnerable is just showing strength. If you are vulnerable and share some stories, that can even give some comfort to everyone else around you. It’s going to be fine. It’s not only you that have challenges. He [has] also [got] challenges.
Joachim: That’s how we connect, isn’t it. Seeing each other’s strength and vulnerabilities. Recognizing that we’re sort of these failed beings trying our best at all times. Seeing that there’s some commonality in being this fragile being, trying.
Jan Erik: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Joachim: I have a philosophical question I wanted to ask you. You can take it any way you like. What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
Jan Erik: You can become anything you like. I feel that’s it.
If I go on a bus, maybe one or two people out of 10 is going to agree with me. But the rest is going to be very skeptical. “Oh, no, no, no. I can’t become… [for instance a] billionaire. Ok, I think you can. It’s just about [whether] you really want to. Do you really want to become a billionaire? I can’t become the marathon winner. [Or win the] Olympics. Ok, maybe I have some kind of injury, but that is not what I mean.” If you decided you wanted to do that when you were 12 years old (or younger), I’m quite sure you could have. As long as you’re not injured etc.
The point is not really again to place first. It’s to fulfill your potential. I think this invisible barrier people have around them is a major stumbling block. We just need to remove…
Joachim: Limiting beliefs.
Jan Erik: Yeah, limiting beliefs. Exactly. That’s what it is. That’s what I mean when I say [that] you can become anything you want. If you want to become an astronaut, I’m sure it’s possible. You have to get your your ass running. You cannot sit at home and just become an astronaut. When you’re 60 years old, no, then it’s too late. If you want to have that house, that dog, that relationship with your partner, or your family, or friend. The time is now. You don’t have to finish everything tomorrow, but you have to get yourself in that direction. I’m sure [that] if you really want it. Want to work for it. And, if you can also agree that there is no free lunch, you just need to work for it. Be patient. Do an honest job. Then, you’re going to get there.
Joachim: I also have the sense that there are some portion of people who will not buy into the idea, and there’s also one portion of people who will buy into the idea, but not be willing when push comes to shove to actually do the work that’s involved. So, you definitely have at least two segments like that.
Jan Erik: Yeah, and I think that is all fine. But then they just realize, maybe I don’t just want it enough. Because now I’m sacrificing something to get there. Then maybe you hit the mark. This something is as long as I want to go. “I don’t want to take 20 more runs around that lake, because now I’m not feeling fulfilled anymore. That goal I was doing this for is not that important. I prefer being with my friends now instead.” It’s fine. High five. You can become anything YOU want. Then you don’t want that. You want something else. You want to have good relations, or deep relations with your neighbors. Whatever it might be. Or, be better at work. So it’s what YOU want. Anything YOU want you can become.
Joachim: Let’s shift the focus a little bit, once again.
When do you feel overwhelmed, or unfocused, or have lost your focus temporarily, what do you do and how do you manage stress and maintain mental health?
Jan Erik: Manage stress… I think physical exercise is very important.
We have a lake here in Stavanger (Store Stokkavannet). It’s 8 something kilometers. Amazing how much ideas that flow through your head. You can loosen up. Just during one run, one lap, around it. For me it’s amazing. Then, I’m in nature. I have a lake. I’m close to the forest. It’s in (the city of) Stavanger, but it feels like [being] on the countryside. I feel I’ve been solving real problems around that Lake. Talking [to] myself, in my head. [Also], hiking in mountains. Oh man, that’s amazing. You can see vast horizons. You can feel the wind. See small animals [going] about their life. [It can] really set a lot of things, we do elsewhere, into perspective.
What is really the purpose of everything? Why do I stress about the work? Is it [really that] important? Do I really need to answer tonight, or can it maybe [even] wait to the end of the week? So, I think having perspective…
Physical exercise makes you boost your mental health and your physical health. It [helps] you refresh your mind, while also getting off your usual habitat. I mean out of your office. Getting elsewhere. Looking [at] yourself from a distance and trying to get perspective. I think [that is] a way to manage stress.
Also, remember you’re not supposed to do everything yourself. You’re not supposed to solve everything yourself. You have colleagues for a reason. They [can] help out, and can you can discuss with them. You don’t need to come up with the answer yourself. You can throw around balls in the room. Also, again, realizing you’re supposed to fail. I think when you raise the bar so high, that you you say to yourself: “I’m never going to fail”. Then that is going to cause you stress. Life is about winning something, [and] losing something.
I think there was this book “The Subtle Art of not Giving a Fuck“, or something like that. Don’t give a fuck. You’re not going to jail. No, don’t rob a bank. Please, no. But as long as you do an honest effort, let people know when you need support, don’t sit with your problem and bury yourself. Go ask for help from a friend. From a colleague. From a neighbor. For me, [that is] stress relieving. I think everyone should lower the bar a bit. Don’t ask so much of yourself. Don’t do it. You’re supposed to live life too.
Joachim: Absolutely, I love that answer. I also appreciated the book by Mark Manson (“The Subtle Art of not Giving a Fuck“). We’ll leave it in the show notes. He (Mark Manson) also made a kind of documentary of the book, which is also great to see for those who may not be that much into books.
I really appreciated those insights.
What would you say is the most important skill you’ve developed in your career, and why?
Jan Erik: Compassion maybe. Listening to people. Really listening. Maybe the ability to put yourself in that person’s shoes no matter the background of that person. When I was in politics, I talked [to] so many different kinds of people. Normal people living in a city. All kinds of backgrounds. With a job. Without a job. With [seemingly] perfect, from the outside, life and those with all kinds of visible problems: health wise, job security, mental issues, all kinds of challenges some are unfortunate to have. When you talk with these [people], they’re still reasonable people. They still have the same hopes [as] the “so-called” successful people. The “so-called” successful people, still have their challenges. It just might not be as visible.
We’re all the same. We’re all worth the same. If [someone] criticize you for something like your political standpoint, put yourself in their position. Think about how might I have come to the conclusion that you’re wrong. Or, why do they value something else?
I want to fight climate change. I want to have a clean world, take care of the nature, etc. But I can understand [that] it is easier for me to have that perspective, when I have house. When I have a job. I have income. I have food every day. I feel 100% safe. Whereas if you don’t have a job. You [would] rather take a job and have food on the table, than fighting climate change. 100% understandable. I cannot be offended. Instead, [we] need to help fix some basics. Then they will come and join in as well. Of course they want to have a clean world. Everyone wants to, if their needs are fulfilled first.
Coming back [to] compassion. Having two big ears, listening. Really taking in and reflecting [on] what [the other person is] saying. Don’t go [on the] defensive. There’s only good people. If someone is doing anything that we think is bad, it’s for some kind of reason. We are born good people. Everyone. So, let’s help everyone become good every day.
Joachim: Absolutely. Speaking like a true mentor.
Speaking of mentorship. What role has mentorship played in your personal and professional growth, and what is the most significant thing you’ve learned from a mentor?
Jan Erik: It is about believing in yourself. You might be a young person. You might be new in this job, or in a new field for you. Having someone senior telling you that: “You have everything that is going to make you excel here. You have the abilities. I know it’s going to feel bit challenging right now. It might seem complex.” Or, you [have] such a big pile of tasks… How are you going to manage and maneuver it. Then, having someone say: “I know the feeling. I know. I was there one time and you have everything [required]. You just have to do the work. Come to me for advice and I will give you some pin-pointers, but you have to do the work yourself. Try and fail a bit.”
I think I had some good mentors in my first job in Accenture. [Who] really laid out on the table the [specter] of abilities [that] you should have and [further] develop.
I had a mentor in Cegal when I was there. [It was] one of the founders of that company. [An] inspirational guy. He taught me things about leadership, [and] perspectives on culture. I really value those people and [what they shared]. I always love when they [take] things back to: “…I remember one time, I was at some [similar situation]. I understand why you think like you do. Or why you might have some limiting beliefs right now. I was there, but I walked the path. I fell down a bit and now I [have] overcome it. I did it. You can do it [too]. [That] kind of mentoring [war stories] I value a lot.
So many books I’ve read of people who have done tremendous things. I think [it’s often] the same story. They all had doubts. Football players. Astronauts. Military personnel. It can be politicians. Business people. They stumbled upwards. There wasn’t a clear path, with all-in victories all the time. No, it wasn’t. I find mentoring [in] just reading.
Joachim: I can relate. I found mentorship in a lot of various biographies and autobiographies as well. Some cases in documentaries where you see the humble beginnings. How windy the road has been, and how unclear it has been during the journey. Only in retrospect it seems sort of obvious for many. But, during the journey it’s difficult, and it’s just a whole bunch of different decisions along the way, while trying to stay committed to that vision, or that goal, that you keep in your mind.
Jan Erik: I think I have to add. It’s not everyone who’s fortunate to get their mind on the idea of joining a military unit. But if you do, there is also a chance to apply for maybe Officer Training School. I don’t know all the countries, how they operate, but I think it’s basically more or less about the same model. If you go [to] the Officer Training School, [you will find that] they are really good at mentoring. They really go all-in on you. They will tell you all your failures (mistakes), and then you have to be ready for that. “On that day, you did that. Or, today two hours ago you seemed a bit unsure what you were doing. If you’re going to command a platoon firing bullets, you cannot show uncertainty. Today, when you held that lesson, people started feeling unsafe because you hadn’t told them where the medic were located for example. But, you were good at this and that, but next time you have to improve this otherwise you’re not going to….” So this can be hard feedback. It’s nothing like “maybe you can try…” No. You “HAVE TO”. There’s only one way. “You HAVE TO get this fixed. We’re going to work with you to fix this, but you have to pass the mark.”
I think the way the Armed Forces work with personal development, analysis and continuous feedback is amazing. I would have loved to see that also in the industry. In the professional environments, but unfortunately I think the whole population [is not] ready for that. You have to do it in a bit different way. It is all possible, you just have to use a bit more time and different tools, a different [kind] of messaging. It is about the same. Being vulnerable. Being receptive to feedback. Then actually working on that feedback you get. Improving and then measure again. Did you actually improve? If not, try again and again. Then, [eventually] you [will] get it.
Joachim: I have to agree. Personally, I really appreciate very direct, transparent and honest feedback. Then it’s much easier to take action. But, I also realize that it’s not for everyone. Not everyone is appreciate receiving feedback in that particular way, and wants it packaged differently for it to resonate with them. So, it’s definitely different flavors works on different people, but I can imagine that it’s very clear and and well put together…
Jan Erik: …one important point. It might seem like it’s so hard in the military. Such a tough environment. They just give you all the sh*t in the face, and you have to take it. As in any organization, even in the military, they worked so much with actually getting us to trust each other. They set up a team [of, say,] 8-10 people say. Today [this group of people are] going to be a team. We’re going to be vulnerable with each other, but it’s going to stay within our group. Now we’re going to criticize each other for a long time. You’re going to criticize me, I’m going to criticize you. We’re going to share, but whatever is being said in this room/tent, or in our group, is going to stay here. Then, you can be [certain] that nothing is slipping out. [That allows] you [to be] more transparent. Then you feel safe.
Coming back to organization. As leaders, if we want to develop people, we need to create that feeling of safety. Then, it’s doesn’t really matter if your criticized as much, because you know it’s not going to be used against you in any way. It’s just going to be used [in] your development. You’re going to be given [the] opportunity [to] also give feedback [to] the other way. Not as a response, but in another occasion. Safety. You need to feel safe, then we can develop.
Joachim: That’s a really good point to add. It’s definitely creating that safe space. I think finding what leads to a safe space in each particular case, in each environment, would be key for people (leaders) to figure out.
If we circle back to your main focus area these days, cyber security, what advice would you give someone just starting out as a professional in cyber security?
Jan Erik: Curiosity. Maintain your curiosity. Never stop learning. Read up on cyber attacks. What happened? How was it possible? And, not just read the news. Really go deep. Analyze the technical aspects of it. What was the attack technique that was used? Was it a mix of technical tools and measures? Was it combined with human manipulation? Then you look at the defensive side. What could have been done to stop, or prevent, or limit the attack? When it just happened? Every cyber attack that actually succeed in coming through the wall, has its own little story.
I think we can’t get away from having a technological foundation. You need to understand it, not just the superficial level. You can’t just understand one part. You need to understand the whole spectrum. That means (I’m getting technical now) things like servers and network infrastructure. How are things connected? How do information actually flow? What is actually the internet built up [of]? What [are] the building blocks? What is making information flow back? What is making it stop? What is making it pass through technical components?
To learn the basics. You don’t need to be [an] expert, but you need to understand how everything is interconnected. Then, you can understand and get into how cyber attacks happen and how they’re stopped.
Joachim: Good piece of advice. It seems knowing the basics and understanding the history of various attacks.
What have you found to be the most effective ways to enhance your learning and memory? Earlier, you mentioned note taking as one of your approaches. Anything you would like to add in this context?
Jan Erik: Note taking, and maybe a prioritization of what are the top 3-5 skills within a discipline that you would need to manage to do well.
Maybe when playing a piano there are [certain] you really should master. Then you have slightly more difficult chords that are not used as often. There’s some basics. Structuring you’re learning. Trying to organize what is going to be your top priority. Get those right, and then use whatever remaining time you have to add in practice. For me, I can’t just read a book and then it’s all clear. No, no. I need to practice. I need to try to write a piece. I need to try to hold a speech. Look at myself on video afterwards to see how that came about. Was I mumbling here..? I was a bit too fast there. Was a bit too slow maybe. I spent too much time on a topic. Practice. Practice. Practice. Try it again. I think all the skills I ever learned has been by practice. Theoretical. Practice. Maybe some refreshments on the theoretical, to put it more into the right context, and then practice more.
Joachim: I was getting some associations to Pareto’s Law, in which 20% will give you 80% of the output. Then prioritizing according to that. Training, and then revisiting the material as now it will be absorbed in a wider context because now you know more, so you get more out of the material, and then sort of looping through those.
Jan Erik: Exactly.
Joachim: Let’s zoom out a bit, and focus on the big picture.
If you could get one short message, or image, out to the world what would it say, or show, and why.
Jan Erik: Remember that every human being is a good person, with good intent. If it’s not shown, it’s because they haven’t been given a chance to.
Thinking about all the wars and conflicts we have, it can be very easy to point at certain leaders and say that, that person is horrible. For sure, I give you that, if you think so. I almost would like to say “lay down the weapons.” It can sound a bit naive. I think that wouldn’t work, of course, but let’s reduce tensions. I know this can be a touchy topic, but is it really important what religion the neighbor has? Is it really important who owns that piece of land? Is it really important who decides if you’re going to build a road in that direction, or that direction? As long as we can all get the same access to use it. We need to have some laws and regulations.
The word revenge, it’s not a good word. Let’s say someone broke into your house and stole something. What is going to be your response? Are you going to go and break into that person’s home and steal back something? Or, are you willing to sit down and listen to that person’s story? Give them the chance to maybe apologize. Learn what made them come and steal that thing from you. Most likely, you’re going to find out if was a vulnerable person, who had been having some difficult times.
I even think [that] people who are starting wars… It is coming a touchy topic, again, but I think we all want the same thing deeply, and that is to be loved. Be respected. Be treated nicely. So, let’s stop fighting about resources. Let’s stop fighting about land, religion, political views. Then we go to the ballot and we vote. Let’s all respect what the result turn out to be. Then we follow that. Then [it is] someone else’s turn the next time.
Every human being is born as a good person. Never forget that. Try to be openhearted, [and] look for the good in people. Try to find common ground.
Joachim: That’s a great message. We definitely need more compassion, empathy and understanding in the world. Especially in these polarized times globally.
Do you ever think about legacy? What legacy would you like to leave behind?
Jan Erik: To be honest, I haven’t been thinking too much about it. I’m a bit like in the “here” and “now”. I’m in the present. I’m looking forward, not too much. What’s going to be after me… I want to be a guy who sets a positive footprint. I want whoever talk about me, or remember me, sometime in the future [will do it] with a positive sign. “He helped someone. He gave someone a chance. He shared. He wasn’t full of himself. He wanted to make other people succeed. He had a positive impact around him.” [In terms of legacy], it should be something like that. If I can ever inspire any person, it would be the biggest honor. That would make me happy because I want people to be good. I want people to succeed. If people are happy, I’m happy. If I see happy, safe people, I get happy. That’s life. I’m in a happy world. If I can ever contribute to something like that, making the world a bit of a better place than it would have been without me, I guess that is…
Joachim: A net positive impact.
Jan Erik: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Joachim: I think that seems like a very healthy legacy to aim for.
Jan Erik: Hope so. If everyone could have been doing that these days. Leave the weapons. I understand politics internationally is not as easy as that, but please and I think when you look at all the global conflicts, [and] the leaders, it’s a lot of men. I think… What drives men? Do they want to impress someone..? I think if the women around these men… I know it’s not as easy as having them raise their voice, but I think men respect women. If women say to their partner, or someone you look up to. Your mother even. “You should think more about this, and that, you will listen. The assumption is that some men that are in these positions, [feel the] need to impress someone… We need to take that away. There’s no need to be on a high horse. It doesn’t define a war leader, or a political leader. The quality of that person is not defined by how much land you have taken, or how many people you have put under you. [It] is actually more about how much prosperity, how much smiles, how much opportunity you have created. How [many] lives you have [enabled to] grow. That is what should drive them.
Unfortunately, I think it’s not that clear for all the top leaders today around the world. Especially in Conflict areas.
Joachim: Just building on what you’re saying, perhaps even they’re to some degree driven by a faulty version of what they would like their legacy to be. They’re driven too much from a distorted legacy perspective.
Jan Erik: Exactly. Big, big topics. I think everyone should try to make the world a better place than it was before they came about themselves. Not [just] for their own little family, with your sister brother, or child, but for the whole community. The [global] community. Even the idea of country borders is for me a bit… What is that really?
Joachim: I feel the same way. I feel more like a global citizen, than a Norwegian. The concept of countries and borders, and yes as we spoke about, also religions and all these -isms, all these categories, seem very unimportant.
Jan Erik: We’re all born on one planet. One nature. One set of resources. Let’s share. Let’s work together. In the medieval times, there was some borders and we had fortresses and stuff, and crossbows and arcs. But, shouldn’t we be a bit more mature these days..? We all kind of know what’s needed. If we sit down and talk. Put aside hostility and differences. Superficial differences. So that it is possible…. We just need today’s generation to grow up and and take the reigns. I think they can do wonders for us, if we raise them well.
Joachim: Absolutely. Hopefully we can do a tiny part of this through a conversation like this. Just sharing some of the things that we hope that some of the people coming after us, will do better.
At the very end I just wanted to hand you another seemingly impossible large question, which I think relates to what we just talked about to see what it all boils down to, to you. What is the meaning of life, as you see it?
Jan Erik: To all the nerds out there, I would say it’s 42. “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy“-jokes aside, I think the meaning of life is to be good. To live i,t but not live your life [at] the expense of others. That is not a good life. Then you have cheated, in my opinion. There’s always shortcuts and always cheats, but walk the clean line. Be good to people. Then make the most out of it. Share your food. Share your prosperity, your wisdom and be good to people. Always be good to people. That is the meaning of life for me. Good relations, experiences, traveling, meeting cultures, tasting, smelling all parts of life. Taking care of your parents. Having children. Raising them. Supporting your neighbors. That is the journey. Growing as a person. I think that is what it’s all about. You grow [from] all the experiences. They make you grow, and get new perspectives. Never stop learning. Never stop growing, and do that to the end when you’re 140 years old.
Joachim: Well, I think that’s a great way to end this.
It’s been a pleasure.
How can people reach out to you online and where can they find you?
Jan Erik: If you want to sell me stuff, be nice. You can just Google my name. You’re going to find my phone number and email address. On LinkedIn, I have a professional profile, so feel free to connect if you’re into personal development, or discussions about the topics we touched on today.
If you want to sell me stuff, I’m going to be a bit more skeptical. Then send me an email with your value proposition. But I’m happy to connect with anyone who wants to have a fruitful relationship and talk about personal development. If I can help out in any way, I would be happy to.
Joachim: All right. Excellent. Thank you.
Jan Erik: Thank you.
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