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Key Points
- Experiment with Dating Apps
Use dating apps creatively, not just for finding love. Helge’s experiment with collecting pancake recipes shows how one can engage with these platforms in unique ways, potentially reducing fatigue and adding fun to the process. - Value of Vulnerability
Being open and honest about your intentions and emotions is crucial in modern dating. This openness can lead to more meaningful connections, even if it involves the risk of rejection. - Embrace Authenticity
In a world of superficial profiles, authenticity in presentation and interaction can be a rare and valuable trait that attracts genuine connections. - Manage Expectations
Understand that rejection is part of dating, especially in an environment where choices are plentiful. Being authentic helps filter out incompatible matches early on. - Profile Creation
When setting up dating profiles, consider:- A close-up, smiling photo as the first picture to show your face clearly.
- Photos that display your interests or lifestyle to give others talking points.
- Adding personality and humor to your profile to stand out and connect on a personal level.
- Combat Dating Fatigue
If feeling overwhelmed by dating apps, take breaks or approach them with a different mindset, like seeking friendship or interesting conversations rather than just romance. - Reflect on Choices
Dating apps can lead to a “disposable love society.” Reflect on the importance of commitment and the value of building something lasting with another person. - Self-Improvement vs. Us-Improvement
While self-improvement is beneficial, focus on how you can grow with a partner, building a shared life together rather than just optimizing your own. - Understand Dating Trends
Be aware of modern dating terms and their implications, like “ghosting” or “situationships.” Consider how these behaviors affect societal norms and personal interactions. - Commitment to Communication
Even in the face of rejection, communicate clearly rather than ghosting. This not only respects others and give them an opportunity for proper closure, but also helps maintain one’s moral integrity in social interactions. - Choose Wisely
With the abundance of options, make deliberate choices about who to invest time in, rather than endlessly searching for “better” options. - Use Dating Apps Strategically
If considering paying for features like boosts, understand it’s about increasing visibility but also reflect on whether it aligns with your dating intentions. - Balance Online and Offline Dating
Don’t forget the value of meeting people organically in real life. It provides a different, often more natural interaction. - Mental Health and Dating
Address personal anxieties or insecurities, perhaps through therapy or self-reflection, to approach dating with a healthier mindset. - Seasonal Dating
Recognize that seasonal trends like “cuffing season” exist, and use this knowledge to navigate your dating expectations accordingly.
These insights may allow you to navigate the current dating scene with a more mindful, engaged, and perhaps more successful approach.
Transcript
Intro
“People don’t want to commit in the dating scene these days.
I don’t think people necessarily have the motivation because they’re having dating fatigue and I think they don’t want to spend time, energy or resources on trying to find someone because they feel like they’ve tried. There’s no hope. It’s hopeless. That’s why I wrote this book.
It might feel hopeless, and I get that. It’s harder now. I totally get that. But, it’s not impossible.
The whole point of the book is to try to give people the motivation and inspiration to keep on swiping and keep going on dates. I think everybody should strive to find love, even though it might feel harder to find love these days. It’s so worth it.”
Joachim’s Intro of the Guest
Today’s guest is Helge Ove Søndenaa Svendsen.
He’s from Norway and has a rich background in communication. He turned his passions into art, and is now a seasoned copywriter with a notable career at JCP PRAD in Oslo. Known for his ability to blend traditional and digital advertising with interactive storytelling, he has recently taken the leap to become an author, which has caught widespread attention.
Helge has written “The Little, Big Tinder Cookbook – 21 Attempts at Love and Pancakes,” which combines his experiences from the world of online dating with culinary creativity. His Tinder journey was more than just about finding love. It was about a playful social experiment of gathering diverse pancake recipes, and trying to offer some extra motivation to people feeling tired of today’s dating scene.
He’s a witty guy, with great commentary on life as it happens, who enjoys traveling and new experiences. Whether that’s moving to the Midwest US, visiting the Everst basecamp in Nepal, doing story slams, or getting lost while driving in Compton. What sets Helge apart is his approach to life’s experiences, whether in personal connections or in the solitude of nature, can be transformed into something playful and fun.
…and now dear friends, my conversation with Helge Ove Søndenaa Svendsen.
The Podcast
[edited for clarity and brevity]
Joachim: Welcome to the pod!
Helge: Thank you.
Joachim: Across the last 10 to 12 years, a new landscape of apps, digital dating norms and costyme have developed and merged into the zeitgeist. As a result, a vast amount of new terms, especially for me, have formed and been integrated into society. This can all seem confusing to many, and it can feel like a jungle that we have not evolved to traverse.
You’ve written the book “The Little Big Tinder Cookbook: 21 Attempts at Love and Pancakes.” Talk to us about this book.
Helge: Isn’t it a fascinating title?
Joachim: It is, it is. I always giggle when I say the title.
Helge: So why I wrote the book – long story short, but I think it started in 2014.
Tinder came to Norway in 2012 and I was living in Oslo at the time. I think I must have been one of the first ones getting Tinder. I remember that weekend, me and all my friends downloaded Tinder. It was just this whole “what is this?” Before that, online dating was a bit stigmatized. I was on Match.com and I was on Sukker.no. I was on different sites trying it out, so I was kind of a veteran in online dating when Tinder hit the streets in 2012.
Me and my friends had a blast with Tinder and everything. Everyone had a really good time with Tinder from the launch in 2012. But, in 2014, I got really fatigued. I was really tired. I couldn’t find love. I was getting ghosted. All the things that still are a problem with Tinder today. I wanted to delete Tinder. But, at the same time, I didn’t want to get rid of the app completely because I thought it was a really interesting platform. So, I wanted to experiment with it and see… People are using it to find love, but can I use it to find something else? My hypothesis was that everybody loves pancakes, which means that everyone has a pancake recipe.
Then, I wrote in my bio on Tinder, where you describe yourself a little bit, “I’m only here to find the ultimate recipe for pancakes. If you don’t have a pancake recipe, please swipe left.”
For those of you who don’t know how Tinder works: You get a bunch of profiles up on your phone, and you swipe left on those you’re not interested in, and right on those you want to match with. If both of you swipe right, then it’s a match. I did it a bit for fun, and to experiment to see where this could take me. I started getting recipes for pancakes and a lot of funny answers. I did this for a year.
Joachim: …and did people jump straight to the recipes?
Helge: Yes!
Joachim: Oh really, okay.
Helge: They did, yeah. Some thought it was a joke, which it kind of was. But, [for] those people who thought it was a joke, I kind of cemented myself in even more into it. “No, I’m only here for the pancake recipes.” This produced a lot of funny conversations.
I think a lot of people understood the sentiment, that everybody was a bit tired of Tinder already back then. I was a breath of fresh air.
Joachim: I can imagine.
Helge: People provided me with a lot of different pancake recipes. I think I managed to get around 40 during that year. A fun a lot of funny responses…
Joachim: …and did you take note of them, or screenshots, or how did you sort of collect them?
Helge: I screenshotted all the recipes and all the funniest conversations. I gathered it all in the blog. I launched a blog on the 9th of February 2016, which was the International Pancake Day.
Joachim: Great planning!
Helge: It was a bit random, but it ended up being good fortune. Then, I launched the website on Facebook: “Here’s an experiment I’ve been doing for about year. Here [are] some pancake recipes. Enjoy!” It went viral! TV2 news media in Norway picked it up, I was on the news! It was a really fun time. I was maybe an E-listed celebrity for 24 hours, which was pretty fun!
I remember the journalist asking me: “What do you want to do with all these recipes? What’s the next step?” …and I thought, I want to write a cookbook. Shortly thereafter I got into a relationship. Not because of the pancakes, or Tinder. [Rather,] through some friends of friends, and I forgot all about the project for a while. When that relationship ended, I was back on the market and I remembered the Tinder cookbook project.
Joachim: You sort of dusted it off..?
Helge: I started looking at the responses. I hit the dating market and went in and out of relationships. Being single, not single for the duration of 10 years. I [gathered] a lot of experiences in terms of what it’s like being single in this new era of online dating. What is love now? Is it the same as it was?
I think a lot of people will can feel the sentiment that you get fatigued, you’re get tired of getting ghosted, etc. I started writing tips for myself [and] reflections on what it’s like dating now. What are the kind [of things that] I should keep in mind to keep going. [I tried to] give myself motivation to keep on swiping and keep on dating. I did this for 10 years…
Joachim: Those notes, did you have them privately or on the blog?
Helge: I had them privately. Just for myself. Then, after a while I thought [that] other people than me might get something out of it, since it’s helping me. It was giving me a lot of motivation and reminded me that there is hope. There’s a reason we’re doing this. It can be done. You just have to keep up the motivation.
I started writing more and more. Longer and longer chapters dealing with things that single people either hear or tell themselves. If you’re single, how many times haven’t you heard a friend of you say: “I know someone that you would match perfectly with!” and “How’s love life going these days?” All those [typical] questions. So when I wrote the book, I divided all the chapters into those sentences.
You’ll find the 6 best recipes from the 40, in the back of the book. The rest of the book is about my experiences as a single person. My hope is that this would be kind of a light in the darkness that is dating in 2024.
Joachim: It’s definitely a breath of fresh air. Something a lot of us can relate to, in one capacity or another. It’s definitely struck a chord with people.
Helge: It has, yeah.
Joachim: You mentioned [that] you were at this event on Sunday, where there was a wide variety of people across age groups. Maybe you could speak to that..?
Helge: The book was launched right before the summer this year. The response has been just 100% positive! I was at this market on Saturday and Sunday last weekend. I was selling the book and it’s a recognizable book. It has like a Tinder logo [on the front], it’s red and it’s about love. It kind of piques people’s curiosity. [Some] had seen it on the news, and seen it in advertisements, etc. The people [coming over to look at the book and chat] were from about 19 to maybe 75 years old! Everybody had a story about love, and dating.
[There was a man,] he must have been [about] 70 years old who came up and said that: “I was recently divorced and now I’m single. I haven’t used online dating apps. When I was young, we went to dance in barns and that’s where we find love. So I’m just curious, what do you do now?”
I said: “You should read the book.” A lot of people think it’s about Tinder. It’s really not. It’s more about dating and love.
Joachim: I think Tinder has become a very descriptive word for what dating is like. I feel it almost describes the entire culture since 2012, until now. It’s like this umbrella term so to speak.
Helge: Yeah, yeah!
Joachim: What would you say is the key thing that you learned from this social experiment, and writing this book?
Helge: One of the key ones is the value of being vulnerable. I think that is one of the key learnings. What Tinder and all the other apps has done with us and online dating is build some kind of a wall between us. This [stems from the fact that] you get rejected all the time, and you reject people all the time. I think [everyone who’s] been using dating apps for the last 10 years can recognize that. You build up a wall to defend [yourself] from being hurt again. [People] know [that] they might be ghosted, and they have this fatigue. You might have 100 or 1000 matches waiting for you on the phone, why would you start meeting people in real life? What’s the point?
If you’re able to be vulnerable, and by that I mean being honest with your intentions and being honest about what you want. If you want a short-term relationship, then say that. Or, if you want a long-term relationship, say it. Be honest with what how you feel. [Be honest about] how someone is making you fee. In our attempt to find love, I think we all have [transformed a bit into becoming] people pleasers. If you’re dating in 2024, you either end up being a people pleaser, or an iceberg that doesn’t let anyone in. That [seem to be two of the main] ways to approach online dating these days.
I think being vulnerable is the ultimate key learning. If you dare be vulnerable with someone, maybe not on the first date. Don’t start trauma dumping your worst memories. It’s not free therapy. But, I think being vulnerable is key.
Joachim: We’re onto some very interesting topics her. Let’s dive a little bit deeper.
If we consider what people actually write on their profiles, one of the things that I’ve seemed to notice is that people put very little information in their dating profiles. It gets me thinking, if you really want to meet someone and you’re hoping that it’s going to be a good match, how are people going to figure out whether you would be a good match for them if you don’t put out much text or much information about yourself? Another related question is: why are the texts and images that people put out so extremely similar, almost identical? The category of picture is almost always identical. It’s like most people picked up some script. This is how to do it, and then everyone is doing that.
It’s quite strange to think about, because it’s not like hetro women look at hetro women’s profile to pick up tips, and it’s the same for men. We don’t look at men’s profile, if you’re a hetro, to figure out what’s a good way to do this. So, how did we end up here? What are your thoughts on these things?
Helge: I think many men actually share their own profiles with other guys. I remember that from my Tinder career. Friends sharing profiles, [and asking] how is this sentence working out. [However,] the ones you should be sharing your profile with and getting tips from, is the sex you’re trying to go on a date with. In my case, it was women. Then you should get tips from them. How is this image looking? How is this being decoded?
Women are even better at sharing profiles.
Joachim: Okay, so that’s what’s happening. Men are sharing profiles with men, and women are sharing profiles with women to get tips. Because of that we’re converging towards something like a standard…
Helge: You can say that.
Take a look at most women’s Instagram. I think you’ll find that women are a lot better at tiding up their Instagram profile. Their better at using angles, light and taking better photos in general, and more “dating profile”-friendly photos.
I think men are not really used to taking pictures of their friends. When men take photos together, most of the time it’s bare chested. Everybody standing together on the beach or something like that. I think most men have a lot of bad photos because men aren’t good at taking photos of each others.
Women are a lot better at this. They know what’s working. They have a lot more photos they can use on a dating profile.
There is a scary amount of similarities between men’s dating profiles and women’s dating profiles.
Joachim: Talk to me about that.
Helge: I think it’s fascinating. It’s like we’re in a simulation.
Joachim: Yeah, [that’s] another rabbit hole… (that we don’t have time to go into now)
Helge: It is a rabbit hole.
Men are almost guaranteed to either have a picture of themselves on a mountain top or holding a dead animal. In most cases it’s a fish.
Joachim: Oh really, that’s a typical thing?
Helge: A typical profile picture for a man on a dating app is holding a fish.
Joachim: Like a big fish, see what I caught…
Helge: Yeah, yeah, yeah! Look how much of a man I am.
Joachim: I’m providing food!
Helge: …I’m providing safety. It’s kind of the animalistic urge to show that I’m a provider. That’s one hypothesis. But another one is that that’s the only time men say: “Take a picture of me!”
Joachim: Ah yeah, maybe that’s the more likely explanation actually.
Look at me look how proud I am. I want to document this. The same thing if you shoot an elk or something, you’d be like “Oh wow, come and take a picture of me!”
Helge: Yeah. Men don’t really have a culture of saying: “Please take a picture of me now.”
Joachim: Yes, it’s not like we typically say: “I feel so cute in this outfit tonight, can you take a picture of me.”
Helge: I don’t think men dares to be vulnerable enough to ask their male friends to take a picture of them. But, if you’re being a bit more vulnerable, there as well, you get better pictures.
Women are also following a kind of recipe. There is one or two photos that a lot of women have. A photo of themselves in the bunad (Norwegian national costume). That’s the classic one! 17th of May (the Norwegian Constitution Day, when most women are wearing their bunad) with some friends, holding a champagne glass. Preferably out on the balcony. That’s almost a guarantee.
The other one is when they’re out and about in the mountain. It’s snowy, and they’re on an after ski of some sort, or in the cabin. They typically wear that uh white Swix sweater.
Joachim: I known what I mean. ‘m picturing it by mind now.
Helge: Red letter saying “Swix” across the chest. There’s A LOT of women has that picture.
If I were to generalize very much, I think those are the typical of images in my experience.
Joachim: …and the one with the wine glass (typically at a vacation, maybe in Italia, or at a dinner or a pre-party).
Helge: The one with the wine glass, of course.
It’s kind of it’s interesting to decode different people’s online dating profiles, because they’re trying to communicate something.
Joachim: All pictures try to communicate something. I mean, you selected those pictures for a reason, and you’re setting the pictures in a certain order as well.
Helge: Why is that your first picture? Why is that your third picture? I think that some people have a reflected the opinion about this, while others don’t. They just upload five pictures and write a little bit in their bio, or maybe nothing at all, and think that’s it. They don’t want to put any effort into it. They typically don’t get that many great results with regards to dating.
Some people have a more reflected opinion of it. Don’t forget that Tinder is a tool. Either you’re using Tinder as a tool, or Tinder is using you. You have to either have a reflected opinion about it, or it’s using you.
Joachim: For some I guess it could be entertainment. I got 20 minutes that I don’t know how ot spend. Let’s go in there (on the a dating app), and get entertained.
Helge: Yes, for a certain certain group of people it could be entertainment. While waiting for the bus, you go through 15 profiles. Validation is another reason. You’re not really interested in going on dates, but [you want] that small dopamine hit you get when you’re getting a match.
I think that’s a huge part of it. That’s kind of what keeps you on Tinder. I think Tinder and other dating apps are built on the gambling algorithms. You just keep playing to win. Get that dopamine hit. That’s what keeps you there.
Joachim: If you’re keen on getting a match, why wouldn’t you talk about yourself so that people can see whether you would be a good match? So many people have virtually no information in their profiles. Virtually none. Maybe a word, or the absolute minimum to just be able to have a profile. That just strikes me as very strange. Do you have any like reflections on that?
Helge: [Many people feel that] it’s better to be rejected for showing 10% of who you are, than showing 100% of who you are and not getting any matches. Then it hits harder. I think that’s the reason why people don’t write anything in their bios. That’s the reason why people don’t put any effort into their pictures on their profiles. If you really showed yourself. This is me. This is who I am, and then you’re getting rejected… You will get rejected either way!
The quality of the matches that you’re getting would be a lot better if you were a bit more vulnerable in your profile, and that costs. Imagine being totally honest about who you are, what you want. Maybe not 100% [honest]. You could show about 80% of how you are, but keep the last 20% as a mystery, or for when you meet someone. That could be the best solution.
Joachim: Keep the remaining 20% for the next couple of dates.
Helge: Yeah. It has to be do with rejection.
Joachim: So, people are protecting themselves by not putting out too much info.
Helge: I think so.
Joachim: It seems that that’s been sort of dialed in over time to the extreme. It seems like 70% of profiles have virtually no information! This could be anyone. How can I have any impression of this person? It becomes really superficial because the only information you have is a few pictures…
Helge: Yeah, yeah. The dating apps are forcing you to make a decision only based on the photos. That activates only the lust compartment of your brain, or how attracted you feel to the person that you’re seeing in the pictures. If you have nothing else to go on, you have to make a decision [solely on that]. That does something to you. I don’t think that is healthy. It can’t be healthy.
Joachim: One way to enforce this from Tinder’s side, or any other dating app, could be that in order to have a profile and be active on this platform, you have to fill in a minimum amount of information. Then raising that threshold would be good for everyone I think.
Helge: That would be great.
I met my girlfriend on Tinder. I talk a lot of shit about Tinder, but you know it works. It can work.
Showing a bit more of yourself. Being a bit more vulnerable and showing more personality is only positive. If you can handle being rejected for who you are. We have to, at some point anyway.
Joachim: All right, I’m going to read a mind-blowing fact about the current landscape of online dating to you. Perhaps you’ve heard it before. It relates especially to Tinder, and it speaks to the gender disparity in user behavior.
Data suggests that men swipe right on about 61% of the profiles they see, while women only swipe right on about 4.5% of men’s profiles. Huge difference! This discrepancy results in this very big imbalance between men and women, where men face much lower match rates and often need to swipe through maybe hundreds, or in some cases, even thousands of profiles to secure even just one single valid date.
Women can be far more selective due to the volume of options that they are facing. This dynamic leads to a discussions about the efficiency and the fairness of the dating app model in fostering meaningful connections.
Given this backdrop, how do you, as a man, succeed in the modern dating scene when these are the statistics?
Helge: I think you have to take into consideration that there are a lot of more men on dating apps than there are women.
Joachim: Okay, that’s for fact..?
Helge: Yeah, I think there’s a lot more men. So in terms of the user base, there’s a lot more men than there are women. So, you have to keep that in mind. The other thing is that both men and women are having a hard time making a choice.
Women are getting thousands of matches, or hundreds of matches, and men are getting very little. As you say, women only swipe on a small percentage. That means that people should put more effort into their profile.
When I was single, a female friend of mine showed me what it was like for women, and it was appalling. The standard, the low effort that most men were putting into their profile. It was maybe three pictures of holding a dead fish. Bathroom selfies taken from here (waist and up). Maybe most men don’t know any better. There’s a lot of men out there with profiles that have bad photos. They’re not putting any personality into their bio, or their photos. They aren’t really showing who they are. They might feel that they are, but if they’re feeling that they’re really putting effort into it, then they should show their profile to female friends, and get an honest feedback. How does this profile make you feel?
The perfect amount of choices [for humans are] somewhere between 5-8 choices. Any less than that, and you would feel like there should be more choices.
If you’re a man and you only have like 3-4 matches, after a couple of weeks of swiping, then of course that will lead you to being frustrated.
How is a woman with 500 matches going to make a decision? She’s getting overwhelmed! Even though the numbers are skewed for both men and women, they’re both facing a problem.
Joachim: The Paradox of Choice for women. You can get into an analysis paralysis. You’re not able to to choose because there’s so many profiles to consider, to analyze and figure out which one should I go for. Also, you might keep on thinking that the grass is always greener on the other side. Meaning, I mean I have all these [matches], and if I select two of them then, tomorrow there’s going to be new matches, and maybe those are going to be better than the ones that I selected now. So, I better just wait. Then, you just keep on waiting and nothing happens.
Helge: Many men tend to be more aggressive on apps. If a woman has 100 matches, a high percentage of these are going to be aggressive in terms of trying to get a date, or being just creepy. Sending her creepy messages. They’re just out for one thing, and just hooking up. I think that puts a lot of women off. That’s why they’re just swiping, and don’t really feel like making a choice.
Men and women are experiencing dating apps in very different ways, but none of them are necessarily positive. I think that you have to take that into consideration as well.
Joachim: Building on that, and contrasting the differences between dating through apps and dating face-to-face, what would you say are the key differences, [considering] people who haven’t been on the new dating scene, and how do you think that these differences have influenced the current dating culture that we live in now?
Helge: Really interesting question. I think it’s never been easier to match with someone and going on a date. It’s way easier today than it was, let’s say, 10-15 years ago. But, it’s never been harder to find love. All these [new] terms. All these unwritten rules about online dating.
Joachim: Could you speak to some of those? Maybe try to demystify some of this? As you say, there are so many [new] terms, we’ll get back to some of those terms later on, but all the norms, how to behave and how to think about things have changed so much the last couple of decades, and especially the last, call it, 15 years. Would you be able to share some of those? Or, maybe demystify them?
Helge: What is showing too much interest? There’s a term called double texting. That refers to having a match that you are chatting with, and texting them again, after not having received a response in, say, 12 hours or 1-2 days. Of course people do this because they’re interested in the other person. You typically want to you know if everything is okay. “Are we still meeting up on Saturday?” But, that is double texting. If the other person isn’t really that interested, and you have no way of knowing that for sure, then that double texting will put them off even more. [Again,] you have no way of knowing this for certain, so you have to kind of follow your gut.
How do you build up your Tinder profile? You might think that by showing a lot of skin, showing muscles or showing yourself on the beach looking kind of flirtatious, in the way that you would do in maybe late ’90s, early 2000s, but that is kind of off-putting. I think a lot of people do it, but that kind of translates that this person is only after one thing. Validation or just hooking up.
I think storytelling is even more important today, than it was before. What story are you telling through your photos. What kind of person are you? On dating apps such as Tinder, which is really photo based, you have to really think through what kind of story you’re telling about [yourself] to strangers. You have to have a reflected opinion about this, because if you don’t, you don’t have control of how you’re getting evaluated.
How fast should you meet up, after you match with someone? That wasn’t an issue in the past, as people met face-to-face for the first time in town, in a club or something. Then you kind of [evaluated] the [level of] chemistry [then and there]. Is this a person I want to go home with, or go on a date with?
When it comes to matching online, [evaluating chemistry is much more challenging. Through sending texts back and forth,] you can kind of pick up some clues in the way that they’re writing to you. How fast are they replying? Are they making you laugh? But that [also] depends on [whether you] are a comfortable texter. Not everybody is. My point is that the best thing is to meet up fast. Maybe after 2-3 days of texting. Meet up within a week, to be [evaluate] the chemistry. You can have great chemistry when texting, but that doesn’t necessarily translate into chemistry face-to-face, when you finally meet.
Those are kind of the unwritten rules. There’s no way of knowing all the rules, unless you’re kind of breaking them…
Joachim: …or learning from someone who’s more experienced.
Helge: Exactly. You ask those around you for advice.
On Tik-Tok I saw a a funny video about this group of 6-7 men. One of the guys is texting with a girl on a big screen TV, while the rest of group are going through each message. “She wrote back 30 minutes later, and then she wrote this. Hmm.. she used this smiley, and not this smiley.” They’re doing a group analysis of the texts, how he should proceed and what he should write back. It’s really funny to watch! It’s kind of Illuminating at the same time, because that’s what it’s like now. How am I coming across? I think a lot of men are happy with not using any emojis, only a thumbs-up here and there.
How should you text to flirt? How should you act across text messages to not come across as disinterested, or aggressive?
Joachim: Hitting the sweet spot between the two, right?
Helge: Yes, there’s a sweet spot.
Joachim: Texting is definitely a skill, just like almost everything else in life is a skill, and you have to practice.
Helge: Yes, you have to. [You have to keep in mind] how this is going to be interpreted from the other person. You don’t have total control over that. You can’t have, but you have to reflect a little bit…
Joachim: Consider your audience.
Helge: Yes, consider your audience, and that depends on how well you know [the other person]. That [strongly relates to] the problem with dating apps. You don’t know this person at all. If you’re using the wrong emojis from the get-go, you might never meet! You might never get a response. So, it’s difficult.
Joachim: Could you share some tips or some guidelines in terms of storytelling through the pictures [in your profile,] and what you’re trying to get across. Maybe that could be helpful for some.
Helge: The most important thing is [what you choose] as your first photo. How is that first photo looking? I write a little bit about this in the book. It should be from the chest up. Semi close-up. It should show your eyes. You shouldn’t have sunglasses on. It shouldn’t be too far away. It shouldn’t be a picture with someone else in it. It has to be you. It has to be semi close-up and it has to show your face. Your full face. It doesn’t have to be straight on. It can be a bit from the side. It should be like any profile picture, from the chest up.
You may want to have it a positive situation. Don’t use the photo that you’re using for work, because that tends to be very professional. Very black and white. Strict. Use a photo from a vacation, or somewhere [were] you’re in good mood. Smiling. You’re having a good time. That’s key. If you want to hold a dead fish, sure, you do you, but I’m just saying this based on my experience. Those who have the most success, have reflected on how they’re presenting themselves.
Joachim: It makes complete sense. I would imagine that for people listening, a lot of them might say “Okay, it makes sense to be have a more conscious approach to how I tell my story, but where do I start?” What would be a great way to tell your story?
Helge: [With the first photo,] you have established how you look. The next photos should show: this is what I like, or this is who I am. If you like swimming, mountain biking or skiing, etc. that should be the second photo. It should be an interest. The third, fourth and so on should show more personality. It doesn’t have to be in this exact order, but the first one should be as I described. For the others you can play around with the order a bit, but it should show your personality. If you like to goof around, or maybe you have a costume on… Give the person that you’re matching with something to ask you about.
Joachim: Create some ice breakers.
Helge: Yes, some ice breakers. Create some mystery. Show different sides. Help people find something to talk to you about. When [they] start swiping through your photos, [you] should [give them the feeling:] “Oh, I didn’t imagine this person was into this!” Use a bit of humor. Show your personality. Give people a laugh! Try to show who you are. If you’re showing the profile to your friends and they’re laughing, that’s a good sign.
Joachim: The, you’re on to something.
Let’s shift gears a little bit.
How do you reckon the shift in dating reflects a change in our underlying values, given that [the widespread use of] dating apps leads to this sort of “use-and-throw-away” sort of mentality and society. How are our values shifting now that we’re in this new dating scene?
Helge: We have a very disposable love society, where people are ghosting each other. They’re not really taking any chances on each other. They’re not really making any [commitments]. Situationships have risen. For those who don’t know, that’s a relationship where you’re not really dating. You’re having the benefits of a relationship, but you’re not really girlfriend/boyfriend.
Joachim: There’s no expectations of exclusivity [in the relationship] and no long-term planning. You’re just having the benefits of companionship and being together. All the benefits, without any of the commitments basically.
Helge: Yeah, it’s like having a weekend boyfriend or girlfriend. Not having any of the commitments. It’s not someone you can show off to your friends, or your family. Situationships dips into the disposable theme/topic that we’re on now.
I think we’re more afraid to commit because everyone have so many choices, that they’re scared of making the wrong choice. What if there’s someone better out there? It’s even worse not making a choice. [People should rather think]: “I feel [something strongly] about this person. Let’s go! Let’s try it out! What’s the worst that could happen?” Give love a chance!
Due to the dating apps, Millennials and Gen-Z are the most rejected generations in history. That creates a colder society. It has become a necessity to survive the dating scene. You’re taking a chance on someone with your heart when you’re matching. You’re starting to chat, and maybe meet up. Going on a couple of dates. It’s creating emotions in you.
Joachim: You’re getting invested.
Helge: Yes, you’re getting invested. Then, all of a sudden, they ghost you. They disappear. [You’ve been meeting them for two weeks, and they just disappear from the face of the earth, for no good reason. You’re racking through your brain: “Why would they do this?” You’re never going to get a good answer.
I think all of these things are [fostering] a disposable society. I think it’s out of necessity. I think we’ve done it because we are trying to protect ourselves. We’re trying to protect our mental health. We’re trying to protect our heart. The consequence of that is the walls. The defense. People aren’t willing to get invested, because they’re not willing to get hurt. I think that if you want true love, a healthy relationship, the first thing you have to accept is that you might get hurt. It might not work out. You’re never going to have a real relationship, if you can’t really invest yourself in it.
Joachim: There needs to be commitment and from both parties. Regardless of which relationship you’re in, there’s going to be tough times. You can get through those times, in most cases, if you’re willing to work for it, but then you need to be committed.
Helge: Both of you need to have made a choice. This is what I want in good times and bad times. When you’re dating in modern times, you might feel committed, but the second you’re hitting rocky waters the other person just throw you away. There’s so many others out there.
Joachim: Exactly, exactly!
There are so many more options. It’s definitely how it feels like looking at society today. There are too many options, leading people to be less committed, meaning people will jump out of relationships much quicker, and in some cases never having a real connection. A lot of people who have been together for a long time, or maybe married across decades, says that as they move through struggles, the connection and the bond just gets thicker and deeper. The relationship gets better over time. But, if you’re never willing to go through those struggles, you will never experience that real bond, because you never get there.
Helge: Exactly! I think that’s a part of being a human. Part of the human experience. Getting to know someone deeply, and your lives being more and more intertwined. You have this notion of “me”, “them” and “us”. In order to build “us,” we both have to invest time, energy and love into it, [as well as] commit ourselves to building this “house”.
I remember a poem I heard some time ago, which is speaks to this. I don’t remember the poem exactly. When two people meet, then one person is a house, [and the other] person is a house. Each house looks different. One side looks beautiful, have clean floorboards and everything. That’s great. Another wall might have some mold and it’s not really perfect. That person is a house, and that person is a house. They both have flaws and faults. A healthy relationship is when these two people take the best components from each of their houses and build a third house that they’re going to live in together. They accept that they have these other bits and pieces that are not as great, but they’re trying to build a house together with the best parts from each house.
Joachim: I like that metaphor.
Helge: When it comes to dating as well, how willing is this person to build something together with me? What is not healthy is if one person insists on having the other person move into their house. They’re not willing to start building something together. If you find yourself in that kind of position where someone is trying to force you into their life, they’re not really trying to build a life together.
Joachim: Accepting that there are certain parts of yourself that are not optimal, like you mentioned with the some of the walls not [being] that good. So, you are willing to let go of those and to replace them with something that’s not coming from you. And, learn from the other person. Maybe they have a better part [that] you can learn from, or they can learn from you.
Helge: Building something together is learning from each other.
Joachim: Absolutely. Growing together and realizing that you don’t have all the answers.
Helge: Everything is not perfect in my house. It won’t be perfect in our house [either,] but at least we’re trying to do the best we can and growing together. I think that’s what everyone’s hoping for. It’s hard to start building that house if you never get the chance to meet, or both commit, and people don’t want to commit the [current] dating scene.
I think people don’t have the motivation because they’re having dating fatigue.
Joachim: That’s a good term!
Helge: Yeah, and I think they don’t want to use their time, energy or resources on trying to find someone because they feel [that] they’ve tried. It’s hopeless. That’s why I wrote this book. It might feel hopeless, and I get that. It’s hard. It’s harder now than ever. I totally get that, but it’s not impossible. The whole point of the book is to try to give people the motivation and inspiration to keep on swiping, and going on dates. I think everybody should strive to find love. Even though it might feel harder to find love these days, it’s so worth it.
Joachim: Yeah, most great things are worth striving for.
Helge: Yes.
Joachim: I want to just quickly circle back to something you mentioned earlier on. Let’s call it the trinity of “you”, “the other person” and “the two of you together/us.” “Me”, “you” and “us.” It seems to me that quite a lot of people are very much willing to work on themselves, but not work on the “us” part. We’re in a very individualistic society where there’s a lot of self-actualization, and a lot of focus on that. [There’s] less focus on the compromise and the “us” part.
If you strive to be worthy of something better than you’re getting today, one of the best ways to attain that, is to work on yourself so that you actually become worthy. You typically do that through self-awareness, self-discovery and self-development. There’s definitely mostly positive things about that. [However,] in this society we tend to think a lot about me, me, me in a lot of contexts. That can lure us away from thinking about “us.”
Helge: I think it’s also due to the fact that society has given people so many more options. [Consequently], you want to make sure that you’re making the best choices for yourself, all the time. That can be quite a straining exercise, but I think that’s where it comes from.
That transfers into dating as well. Am I choosing the perfect partner now, or is there someone better?
Joachim: The search for perfect.
Helge: Yeah, you’re improving yourself and that’s great. If you’re trying to optimize the way you’re finding a partner that might not be as beneficial. In the end, finding someone is all about what kind of chemistry am I having. Who am I when I’m with this person? Do I like the person that I am when I’m with them? That’s maybe one of the most important things to look for and ask yourselves.
Joachim: Good way to put it.
Helge: Yeah. Not how is this person fitting into my optimized life.
Joachim: If you’re into self-development, it would definitely be beneficial if the person you meet is also into that so [that you can] grow together at least.
Helge: Very much so. Or, if they’re not, the willingness to learn is another key factor. That boils down to values and interests, Who you are as person, which also is very important when it comes to dating. Values are still very important today, but maybe we forget it sometimes.
Joachim: That’s also something that could potentially be explicit in a dating app. What are your values? You could list them up. What are the 3-5 key ones for you?
Helge: You can list your love languages.
Joachim: Yes, that’s true. One of the [dating apps] has that [as an option].
Helge: I think that’s great. If you have dived into love languages and you know your own love language that’s great. I think that’s one of the most important things that you can do for yourself in your quest to love. Finding out what kind of love language speaks to you. How are you showing love to other people? How do you want love to be shown to you?
Joachim: Let’s say it’s Tinder that has this option of choosing love languages. It would be great to have one that goes both ways, two options. One [for] what I typically give, the love language that I give. [And one option for] what I like to receive.
Helge: Don’t sit home and read my book [in its entirety before acting]. Read a little bit [of the] book, or someone else’s, and then…
Joachim: Start the feedback loop.
Helge: Start the feedback loop, exactly!
Joachim: We talked about a few of the the [dating] apps, but let’s linger on it a little bit [longer].
How would you compare Tinder to other apps such as Hinge, Happn or others that are on the scene? Are they all the same, or do they have different purposes, pros and cons? Ifso, which ones [should be used] for what?
Helge: The ones I remember is Hinge, Happn and Tinder. Then you have Raya, which is the celebrity one. Let’s do Tinder, Happn and Hinge. That seems to be the main ones.
I think that Tinder is a bit more superficially constructed. Happn is more based on location, at least that’s what they’re advertising. If you see someone out and about on the street, that you find cute, then their advertising says that you can find them again on Happn, if they’re are on it.
Joachim: If someone passes you on the street? That’s the use case..?
Helge: Yeah. That’s great, but if you’re living next to e.g. the bus in a big city, [then when] the bus drives by your apartment those people [will] also appear on Happn, which defeats the purpose.
Then you have Hinge, which demands a bit more answers to questions about yourself. You have to make a little more effort when creating your profile.
Joachim: [There are] fewer pictures there, and I think there’s no free text field.
Helge: You do have to answer a lot of questions. Yeah… There’s no free text field.
Joachim: I’m no expert, but when talking to people about Hinge, now just talking for Norway, it seems to me that it’s more popular in Oslo (the capital), than in other parts of the country.
Helge: True
Joachim: It also seems like you have fewer pictures, which is then supposed to be replaced by text and answers to questions. But you don’t have a free text field, and most people seem to answer questions with like a word just to validate the profile.
Helge: True.
Joachim: It ends up being almost worse than Tinder. In terms of amount of information [available on people’s profiles]. I’m no expert, but that’s what I’ve heard.
Helge: Well, that makes sense. If you’re answering those Hinge prompts (pre-made questions) with [only] one word, that tells you a lot about that person.
Joachim: Yeah, for sure.
Helge: …and the intention of being there (having a profile on that dating app). They just want to have access to the dating pool, so they’re doing the bare minimum to get access to the dating pool that Hinge provides. Hinge is probably more popular in Oslo. I live in Oslo. There’s a larger amount of single people, which means that the user base on Hinge is larger.
If you have to choose one of them, maybe Hinge is a bit better. But that depends on what you want. Maybe people have a greater degree of dating fatigue on Tinder… but it has also the largest user base worldwide, and in Norway. It’s been [available] for 12 years.
Joachim: It’s like the OG [dating] app.
Helge: The OG app yeah, yeah! [It] has a lot of people on it.
The [graphical user] interface of Tinder, Hinge and Happn are they’re getting more and more similar. Tinder looks at Hinge and see what works, and they kind of…
Joachim: They all converge on whatever works.
Helge: Yeah, exactly. I think that makes sense. Why not do all three?
Joachim: Yeah, I was going to say. Dip your toe in all the ponds.
Helge: Maximize your portfolio.
Joachim: I’m getting the sense that a lot of people who are single today are have a profile on most of dating apps. While in the past, where people chose specific aps based on what they were into. Now everyone is on every platform, so it doesn’t really make any difference.
Helge: Yeah, it’s a lot of work to maintain a dating app. If you get a match, then you have to keep the conversation. Maybe you’re talking to three matches on Tinder, two on Hinge, and one on Happn.
Joachim: That’s a fulltime job!
Helge: You have six people you’re talking to, and you have to [keep in mind] what kind of inside jokes do I have with which person. Who am I meeting on Saturday? Limit the amount of people you’re talking to, and make a choice. Make a choice on who you’re talking to, and try to get to know them. Give them a chance. If you focus on one like person at a time, you’ll find the answer a lot faster.
Joachim: One thing we haven’t touched on so far, is pay versus not pay. Most of these apps have a premium subscription, gold or platinum, or whatever they call it. So, either you have it for free, or you pay. What are your thoughts, reflections or intuitions on whether people should pay for [a dating] app? Would they get more out of it?
Helge: I think paying for dating apps could be a necessity. There are a lot more men on, let’s say, Tinder than there are women. Remember that these dating apps are not really [created] to help you find love, they’re there to make money. They’re key target audience is single men, between 30 and 38. They have the money to pay for dating apps and they’re also in that part of their life in which they will focus on settling down, if they haven’t already. It’s the key target audience, not just for Tinder, but all the dating apps.
Tinder have something called Gold membership. If you pay for that, you will get access to something called boost. It’s a way to pay for the algorithm to show your profile to more women for 30 minutes. So, you’re kind of above the stack. When a man opens Tinder, he will swipe through, say, 40 profiles. Women swipe [much] less. They do a more conscious choice. They go through maybe 6-7 profiles, and then they put their phone away. As a man, you have to pay to be one of those 6-7 [profiles]. I you start using boost, where your profile is added to the top of the stack for 30 minutes on Sundays between 7 and 8 in the evening (7-8 pm on Sundays).
Joachim: Okay, that’s the best way to do it..?
Helge: Now everyone will do it probably.
Joachim: What is the psychology (the rationale) behind [that timing]?
Helge: It’s Sunday. People are probably a bit hungover. Probably a bit love sick. They’ve already eaten dinner. They’re doing their Sunday activity which is probably watching a TV show…
Joachim: …wishing they were two watching the show.
Helge: …not really paying attention to the show. Being a bit on their phone. Maybe swiping. Doing dual screen, being a bit on Tinder as they’re watching, let’s say, “Love Island.” Then, boom there’s your profile!
Joachim: Are there other features that one would unlock by paying, other than boosting?
Helge: There’s one of the apps where you can write to someone, without having matched with them first. Then, you have something called super like.
Joachim: Is that useful? Does that work?
Helge: Well it depends… Then they know that you [really] like them. This ties back to the desperation bit.
Joachim: Yeah! Is it a positive thing, or is it [just] a signal that this guy is super desperate?
Helge: It has a negative connotation, because when you super like someone, [it means] that you really like them, and in the society that we’re in right now with dating being as it is, it can come across as a bit desperate. You’re a bit too interested!
Joachim: So all in all, people should actually avoid using [super like]?
Helge: Yeah, I think [people] should avoid using super like. [Rather use] boost [and focus on] having a better profile. That’s a better way to go about it.
Another [feature] that you get access to [when paying for Tinder], is [that] you can change your location. Let’s say you are going on a vacation to London in a couple of weeks. When paying for Gold membership on Tinder, you can change your location to London and start to match with people [in order to set up] dates. That could be an interesting way to use it.
I think 70 – 80% of people who use Tinder are men.
Joachim: Oh, it’s that much?!
Helge: I think it’s a lot of men. You’re competing against a lot of other men. Women are also having dating fatigue. They’re [typically] swiping through [less than] 10 profiles each time they go on Tinder, so you have to be one of those 10.
Joachim: Let me switch it up a little bit, read you two quotes and get your reaction to those.
“Modern dating is basically learning all about someone, until you’re no longer attracted to them. Sometimes this takes one date, sometimes it takes years.“
and here’s the other one
“Modern dating isn’t real. Both people are just playing pretend while waiting to see if they can do better.“
Helge: Those are interesting quotes.
The second one ties directly into Situationships, because you’re just waiting for someone better to show up. You’re kind of making a choice, but you’re waiting really. You’re not really investing as much into it. You don’t want to show your true colors.
There’s a theory on the internet called the Taxi Cab Theory.
Joachim: Okay, yeah, tell me about it.
Helge: The Taxi Cab Theory is: “either you’re the destination, or you’re the taxi cab“.
I think [that] when you ask yourself: “Am I the destination, or am I the cab?” I think that your gut will give you an answer straight away. You should be with someone who’s really committed to you, and whom you’re committed to. You want to build something together, but that takes time.
Joachim: It’s a very poignant way of putting it!
Helge: I think we’re just more afraid of showing who we really are. [Afraid to show it too soon,] and being fearful of scaring [the other person] off. I think that’s a huge part of it. If you show who you are, then if you get rejected that hurts a lot more. The alternative is to not be your authentic self, and I think that’s destructive for you and for the one you’re with, and for whatever you’re trying to build.
Joachim: In this society where people are being so superficial in so many dimensions, it seems like one of the scarcest resources is being genuine and authentic. For people who are actually able to do that, it will be so much more impactful than [they might be] aware of.
Helge: I think the older you get, the more you date with intention. I think when you’re starting to date in your early 20s, you might not really know who you are, or what you’re looking for. What interests you have when it comes to love? As you grow older, I think you’re dating more and more with intention. You become more interested in who you are, and what you like. It’s not age specific, but I think the earlier you become interested in that, the more you [can make] conscious choices. Why not be a bit more conscious about it?
Joachim: …as with other things in life as well.
Helge: Exactly.
Joachim: Let’s visit some of these new terms. One of them is incels, and for people listening who may not know what that is… It’s mostly men, who believe that they are unable to find sexual or romantic partners despite wanting to. They often attribute their single status to societal, biological or personal reasons like not being attractive enough or women having too many choices due to social changes. One of the beliefs is that the sexual marketplace is unfair. Only a small percentage of men get most of the attention from women.
Some of incels subscribe to this black pill mentality, which is suggesting that looks and genetics are destiny and no amount of self-improvement can change their romantic fate. They’re sort of doomed to whatever shelf in life they’ve been attributed to.
What’s interesting is that statistics show that the online incel community have been growing at a rate of 50% per year, with over 40,000 new posts on incel related forums per month. Another interesting statistic is that men who are between 18 and 30 reporting that they had no sex in the past year in 2002 was 10%, in 2023 that number was 30%! So, a threefold increase in 20 years!
What role does dating apps and the current dating culture play in this development do you think?
Helge: Those are very interesting numbers. Those numbers are…
Joachim: Staggering!
Helge: It’s staggering! It’s just astonishing!
I don’t think dating apps per se are to blame for it. I think dating apps have shown a light on a bigger issue, which is trying to figure out who you are in this world, and what you want. “No matter how much self-improvement I do, no one wants to love me.” Trust me, that’s [how they are] victimizing themselves.
Isn’t it better that women are choosing partners because they want to be with them, rather than having to be with them to live a complete life? It’s not that many years ago when women had to have be married to [attain] certain rights. Women have more rights today, but I think there’s a long way to go still. I think men and women are becoming more and more equal. In the par, women had to be with men in order to get access to different parts of society. Luckily, they don’t have to do that anymore. But, they still choose partners. They still choose men, but they choose men that they want to be with with.
I don’t think that if men are victimizing themself by saying “No one wants to be with me no matter how much I work out, how many many self-improvement books I read.” I don’t think the problem is that you’re not reading enough self-improvement books, or not working out enough, or whatever the case might be. I think it’s the whole mindset. It’s hard to find love. It is. It’s not supposed to be easy, because if it was it wouldn’t be worth much. It wouldn’t be as special as it is, I think.
The whole incel culture might spring out from a place that… of course it might feel unfair when you see friends of yours getting into relationships, having success, establishing families and you’re still single. Of course that feels unfair. At the same time, you can’t blame other people for it. There’s so much you can take responsibility for yourself. If you’re not happy with your situation that you have in life right now, then there are many things you can do. Getting more friends…
I think a lot of incels are in an echo chamber of negative emotions and negative reflections. I think that’s a part of the problem. They’re not getting their opinions really challenged.
Joachim: The community itself could just reinforce the problem. They’re victimizing themselves. They’re listening to other people victimizing themselves. It becomes an echo chamber, and basically they’re all worse for it. Being in that community is just making it worse for everyone in it it.
Helge: It feels nice to be a victim, but if you want to be a victim then you have to accept that it’s hopeless. You can’t have one without the other I think. There are things that you can do, and one of them is to step out of those discussion forums, and try to get your opinions challenged. But, get them challenged by people that you know want [the] best [for] you. [You] have to trust the other person if you want to get your opinions challenged. You have to have a discourse. A discussion.
I think it’s sad that incel culture has risen that much. It’s a symptom that we’re growing more and more apart. More people are falling into those echo chambers, potentially isolating themselves. It shouldn’t be like that, I agree. But, I don’t think the solution is to victimize yourself, or blaming others. I think that if you have that many theories about society, then [rather] use that energy to meet up with other people. Improve yourself together. As we talked about earlier, some parts of you can only be challenged if you’re having a close relationship with someone. It doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship. It can be with close friends. But, you have to challenge yourself. I think that’s a way out of it.
It’s a global issue.
Joachim: It definitely is.
Before we round up this topic, let me just introduce a few more of these pills, which is part of all this new terminology.
There’s also something called a red pill, which is often associated with men’s rights, where one wakes up to a perceived systemic bias against men. But, here’s the difference, still believes in the possibility of change through knowledge or action. So, they feel it’s hopeless. They feel the system is rigged against them, but they think it’s possible to change it.
Then there’s another one, which is blue pill. You have black pill, red pill and blue pill. The blue pill represents either living in ignorance, or living with an optimistic view of relationships and society where personal effort can lead to success. So, you have the two negative ones: the black and the red pill, [while] the blue pill is more optimistic, or potentially viewed from the others’ perspective as being naive.
The statistics, as we’ve looked at, would seem to indicate that the current dating culture leads especially men towards this black and red pill mentality. That seems to be happening, since there have been less of it in the past.
I would be curious to know why you think that is, and how can we course correct?
Ideally we should have more people thinking in a blue pill fashion, in which you [believe that you] can change yourself. You can get out of this. Has the dating apps, or the new dating culture, exacerbated this in some way, or is it just [a matter of] people coming together on internet forums, they sort of congregate, create echo chambers and it reinforces itself because of that?
Helge: Oh, that was such an interesting question!
Dating has become more available, as we talked about earlier. It’s easier to find and go on a date. Back in the day, the men that had success when going out in the city was the ones that had the guts to go up to women and start talking to them. Ask them to dance. That’s been the same way throughout the ages. Having the guts to do that. That’s still scary. Going up to strangers when you’re out in the city. Dating apps has removed that, and made it easier to find a date.
Joachim: In that way it has leveled the playing field a little bit.
Helge: Leveled the playing field a little bit, but it’s still hard. It’s still about connection. There are different rules. Now, there are groups of guys who used to go out in the town on a Saturday night to dance and flirt with the girls, but now they’re just [home] sitting around the table talking, drinking beer and swiping on dating apps on a Saturday night. We’re diving more into our phones, and we haven’t really seen the value of raising our heads and looking other people in the eye when we’re out. It doesn’t have to be on a Saturday night. It could be in the store, or on the street, etc.
Dating has become more industrialized. You’re sitting on the conveyor belt, swiping and trying to find love. In the past, it was more of an organic experience. Maybe you saw someone in a store, out and about, on a vacation, or through friends and colleagues.
Joachim: Personally, it feels more natural. I miss that part of society [when we had much] more face-to-face interaction. Going up to someone that you find interesting, or fascinating. Having a chat. Now we’re all on the apps. Sometimes people will be surprised, or even negatively surprised if you approach them because it’s so rare. They act like: “This is not how it’s supposed to go! We’re supposed to go through all these steps in the apps and whatnot. What the hell? I don’t know you! Why are you coming to me?” That sort of thing, which is definitely a negative development.
Helge: Yeah, we’re not used to being picked up! We’re not used to flirting anymore! Isn’t that sad?
Joachim: It’s horrible! It’s absolutely horrible! Such a sad development.
Helge: It is. It is. We’ve lost the ability to walk up to someone and flirt. I read somewhere that 80-90% of new relationships are formed through dating apps. The rest is through friends, co-workers or organically on the street. That’s a lot! If you don’t feel like you know how to handle Tinder, land a date on a dating app, or this new [dating scene] and don’t feel [like] you have the skills to talk to someone on the street, of course that’s frustrating. So, I can understand people falling into black and red pills.
I think we’re on our way to a much better place right now because more and more people are seeing the value of actually being authentic. Being vulnerable. Actually being met. When you’re being vulnerable with someone, and showing your authentic self, if they’re not meeting you, but rather rejecting when you’re being authentic that tells you everything you need about that match.
Joachim: It’s a great filter basically.
Helge: It’s a great filter! It’s the best filter you have. Being authentic. Being vulnerable. Being yourself. If you do that in your interactions with other people and they reject you based on that, [then] that’s not your people. That’s not for you, and that’s totally fine. That means being rejected and that hurts. People fall into these pills because they’ve been rejected so much. As we talked about, Gen-Z and Millennials are most rejected generations in history. It’s no wonder. But, being rejected is part of finding love. If you’re rejected based on who you are and the being authentic, that hurts a lot more. I agree. But, at least you have the confidence and the courage to meet the world as your authentic self.
Joachim: If you match with someone, you know that it’s real. If you match otherwise then who knows?!
Helge: Exactly!
Joachim: Speaking about being able to manage rejections and difficult times in life, a lot of people seem to feel anxiety today. This can be further exacerbated, by the feeling of not succeeding in the dating game, not finding someone, or the feeling of loneliness. Some people talk about a loneliness epidemic.
I know that you’ve been publicly open about some of your experiences with anxiety and angst in the in the past. Could you talk to us about anxiety, dating and the path out of this as individuals and as a society? Is the path vulnerability, or is it more complex?
Helge: I think vulnerability is a huge part of it, but in order to be vulnerable there is a ladder you have to climb. That ladder consists of becoming comfortable with who you are and knowing that you’re not alone. There’s a lot of people that have anxiety when it comes to dating or have anxiety in general. We’ll come back to the society part of it, but I think as an individual it’s important to first and foremost talk about it and talk about it with someone around you that you feel you can confide in. Someone that you feel want wants the best for you. That could be a close friend, a family member, even a colleague, or it could be a professional therapist.
I think the most important thing is to talk about it. It’s not so much about getting advice. It’s more about talking in a way that helps you [identify] what about you that needs attention. If you have anxiety, and I can only speak from my own experience, then it’s usually because there’s some part of you that you haven’t really given that much love and attention. It kind of craves your attention. Craves being comforted. For instance some that experience social anxiety, what they’re really afraid of is what other people think of them. The most common advice those people get is “Don’t care about what other people think“.
Joachim: That’s perhaps giving the end point, rather than the starting point.
Helge: It’s giving the end point, exactly! In order to get to a mindset where you don’t care about what other people think, you have to accept a lot of things inside you. “I’m like this. I do this in these situations.” That’s okay. Give yourself the comfort that you need, and not look to others for that comfort or that validated. I think that’s a huge part of it. Then, giving love and attention to those sides of yourself. In order to do that you have to find out which parts of yourself that you need to give love and attention to. You can do that through self-reflection, or, in my case, talking about it with a professional therapist. That was hugely helpful for me in order to get to know myself. I got to accept those parts of myself.
How does that translates into the dating scene..? If you’re afraid to be vulnerable, then maybe you’re a bit of a people pleaser because you don’t want to be rejected. Or, you’re afraid of what they might think of you. Or, you just want to be liked, but if you like yourself first, accept who you are and give yourself the comfort and attention that you’re seeking from others, then that [helps massively] with anxiety. The anxiety doesn’t really go away, but it dampens it.
Just dating yourself, so to speak. I write about this in the book as well. There’s one person that you’re going to be with for the rest of your life, and that’s you. Being comfortable with who you are and giving yourself the love and warmth that you need, that starts with you. It’s natural to seek that from others, but you have to give it to yourself as well.
How do we handle this as a society? I think being more open to people being wired together in different ways. Even though someone experiences this situation in a certain way, doesn’t mean that you have experience it in the exact same way.
As a society, let’s consider the ADHD epidemic. There’s a lot of people who feel that they have ADHD and research if they have it or not. I think there’s a lot of people that have it, but I also think that it [perhaps] stems from a place of us not really accepting certain parts of ourselves. That we’re procrastinating, or that we that a reaction to a situation that makes us scared.
I was really nervous every time I was going to hold a presentation at work. I was so nervous. I had a lot of anxiety attached to that. That was because I didn’t accept that I was nervous. I didn’t allow myself to be nervous in a situation in which it’s perfectly normal to be nervous. I understood that others could be nervous, but I wasn’t going to be nervous. I didn’t give myself permission to [feel that way]. That gave me a lot of anxiety around performing socially, in front of others. I started to accept that I’m nervous, I’m a human being, I have a whole range of emotions and accepting the emotions are a huge part of it.
As a society, learning that we as individuals can accept our ourselves to a greater degree and remove the notion that we have to be a certain ideal type of human being.
Joachim: Allow yourself to be human.
Helge: Yes, allow yourself to be human. Allow yourself to have a human experience.
Everyone is living this life for the first time. We’re trying as best we can.
Joachim: Everyone’s winging it.
Helge: Accepting that, I think, is a huge part of it. If we can pivot our society to a place where it’s more and more accepted that we try our best. And, I believe that we are. Nobody’s perfect.
Joachim: Presenting in front of a crowd is the most common fear that people have. Seinfeld even have a great bit on this, which is that people are more afraid to give the [eulogy] in a funeral than being in the casket themselves. Death is number two! That is crazy!
Helge: It’s insane! Makes it so funny, and sad.
There’s a timeline that you feel you have to fulfill, in some way. You should get your master’s degree before you’re 26 [years old]. You should have at least one or two romantic relationships by that time. Then, when you’re 30 [years old] you should have a real relationship. Then, when you’re 35 [years old] you should have some kids, the white picket fence, the dog, the car/station wagon. There’s this timeline, for some reason. That isn’t valid anymore. That timeline that we’re all grown up with it, looks [slightly] different for everyone, but that doesn’t exist anymore.
There’s a different timeline now. You get to decide when you’re doing certain things. Of course there’s a the biological clock. If a women wants to have kids, that’s an unfair biological limitation that we have to consider in all of this. That being said, if you want to change career when you’re 40 [years old], do that! If you want to take another master [degree] when you’re 50 [years old], then do that. If you don’t know what you want to do when you’re 25 [years old], that’s totally fine. There’s this pressure that society puts on us, that our culture puts on us. I think that if we as a society can reduce that pressure, it would alleviate a lot of mental health issues. More acceptance around that, would make trying to find love and dating not as stressful.
You wouldn’t have 10 matches on your phone, looking for the 11th trying to find some flaw that validates your reason not [to proceed with] that person. Maybe the next one. Taking down the pace of bit.
Joachim: At least there’s less and less stigma in society, so it seems like we’re moving in the right direction in some dimensions.
Helge: We are, we are. Definitely. I think the mental health stigma is luckily declining a lot, and that’s a good thing.
Joachim: I just want to throw out one more of these new terms and get your thoughts on it. There’s something that I’ve come across called cuffing season. It’s an expression for having a short relationship during the winter months. This term describes the period where, especially people who live in colder climates like us in Norway, seek out a romantic or sexual partner to cuff or keep close during the cold months.
The idea is to have someone to cuddle with, share warmth with, and reduce feelings of loneliness throughout the winter, with the relationship potentially ending once the weather gets warmer.
One would think that these kind of relationships would be more easily enabled through dating apps and through this dating culture that we’re part of, so maybe no wonder that they are more frequent now. Is this a positive trend, and what are your thoughts on cuffing?
Helge: Well, you do have situationships, and that’s been around for a while even though the term situationship was coined recently. Some use the term cuffing season for a short-term relationship, but I think especially here in colder climates, cuffing season is more the main season. The best season to find a relationship. People are more looking, because when when spring comes along there’s naturally more sun and you go outside more. You flirt more. That’s part of the whole reproductive cycle for human beings. That’s kind of how we’re in tune with nature. When autumn and winter comes, we want to go into the den. We want to sleep it off. We want to hibernate, preferably with someone.
I don’t think it’s about the short-term. I think it’s a better season to find someone because then people are actually taking it seriously. It might end up being a short-term relationship, but it’s a better…
Joachim: Single peak season?
Helge: Yes, single peak season. Being single when it’s spring and summer is great. You meet a lot of people and you’re having a good time. But, if you’re serious and want a relationship, I think autumn and winter are the best times. Then people are taking it way more seriously because they are looking for someone. It could be short-term, but preferably long-term. It is definitely a thing, but I think it’s more positive than negative.
Joachim: I wanted to touch on yet another one of these terms. There are so many apparently, and all of this can be quite difficult to navigate. Perhaps we touched on it a little bit earlier in the conversation, but there’s a term called monk mode.
It’s a term that describes a period of intense personal focus and discipline where one emulates the lifestyle of a monk in order to achieve some specific goals. That could be typically removing the consuming distractions like social media, or removing dating to concentrate on self-improvement, productivity or a particular project. Typically, people will take on habits like minimalism, meditation, and more strict routines to focus. The idea is to live with intent and cutting out all these indulgences that seem unproductive or counter to professional or personal growth.
This term have apparently gained a lot of popularity among entrepreneurs, creatives and those seeking to maximize efficiency and self-awareness. We’re seeing this massive decline in replenishing rates especially in Western countries. We see birth rates are dropping. Fewer and fewer people are having children, and those who are, have fewer children. So, we’re basically heading towards a population collapse.
To what degree do you think that all of this can be ascribed to things like monk mode that we talked about, incels (that we talked about), cuffing season, situationships and all these consequences of modern day dating.
Helge: Monk mode doesn’t necessarily sound negative, so to speak. There’s a lot of distractions. More distractions today than it ever was, and being able to cut all that off in order to pursue a project or a goal could be positive.
Joachim: It definitely could be positive. But everything to a certain degree.
Helge: A lot of people have more commitment issues. It’s scarier to commit to someone. To make a a choice. We want to maximize our life even more. There’s a lot more opportunities in our 20s and 30s, [than ever before]. We want to travel. We want to [get] the master’s degree. We want to [have a].
Joachim: We want to achieve more before having the baby.
Helge: Exactly! We have a lot more opportunities than our parents had, so we want to maximize them. When we were raised, our parents told us: “You can do whatever you want. Be whatever you want. Just go for it! Go for your dreams!” Such a pressure. No wonder we have mental health issues.
Joachim: It’s quite different than leaving home at 14 [years old] to become a sailor. Or, working at the farm.
Helge: Exactly, yeah! That was the career path you had available to you. Maybe 1-3 other options, but now you have all the options. So, you want to maximize everything. I think that’s going to be an even bigger issue with the younger generations when they are growing up. Now they’re optimizing their lives when they’re like 16-17. [They’re] starting earlier and earlier. That’s not going to go away. We’re going to have fatigue in all different ways and forms. [More] people are getting burnt out, and at earlier [stages in life]. We have so many options and having a child seems so permanent, which it is. We want to postpone that as long as we can. That means fewer babies and a declining birth rate.
We’re postponing the choice because it’s a commitment, and as a society we have postponing all commitments.
We want to do everything, all the time. Then, all of a sudden it might be too late.
Joachim: One of the down sides of this vast amount of choices we have.
Helge: It is. It is. As human beings, we’re not wired to have too many choice. If we do, we want to do it all, or we don’t do anything. The fatigue kicks in.
Just make a choice. If it doesn’t work out, try another one. The important thing is to make a choice.
Joachim: We spoke a little bit about ghosting earlier and what ghosting means. Staying with that term a little bit, I think most people feel that it’s a bit immature, disrespectful and hurtful way to end a relationship or interaction. Even though we see it more frequently than in the past, it doesn’t legitimize it in any way. I’m wondering what is causing us to act less mature and humane in our social interactions? Are our fear of confrontations leading us to a colder and more robotic society?
Helge: I think ghosting has come an issue because it takes so much energy to reject someone. You [have] to go through the motions of: “Well, actually I don’t think we will work out. But, I like you as a person.” Then they become angry and you don’t want to deal with all that because you’re meeting so many people, all the time. It’s demanding to reject someone. It’s awkward then and there, so you remove the match. Now it’s now part of the fatigue basically. It’s kind of a way to conserve your energy.
Joachim: It makes a little bit more sense when you put it this way, because one way to think about it could be that we have this moral decline. We spoke about values a little bit earlier, and it feels like we have not as solid value foundation as we used to have. That we’re less focused on morale, or what would be a good way to treat other people. But, looking at it through the lens of conserving energy is somehow makes sense.
Helge: I think that most people in general are trying to do good, but that takes a lot of energy. If you wanted to do good all the time, you would never ghost someone. You would always sit them down [and explain your] reasons, [and then ask how do the other person feels afterwards]. That takes a lot of energy. Doing that once in a while helps you be the person you want to be, but if you feel that you have to reject people often, which might be the case due to how dating apps work, that demands a lot of energy and attention. That drains you, and you want to keep your energy to do other things than dating as well. I think that all of us are trying their best, but we’re also trying to protect ourselves to various degrees.
If you’re dating someone and you’re being ghosted, you can’t do anything. But you can be part of the solution. I think part of the solution is to stop ghosting people and give them an answer. It might not be a well thought-out answer, but it could be something. If you’ve gone on dates with someone just say: “Hey! Really enjoyed our time together. I’m not really feeling it. I’m sorry, but I wish you the best.” Of course it sucks to be the one that’s rejecting people, but then at least you’re part of the solution.
Joachim: The amount of time that you spend to write that one sentence, or or those few words is not that much. In terms of consuming energy, it’s not going to consume that much, and I think it means a lot for the other party to get that closure.
Helge: Closure means a lot. It does. But, there’s an emotional cost for you to write that message because you don’t inherently want to hurt another person. You are potentially hurting them.
Joachim: You could be hurting them more by not [writing that message], because they could be silently waiting on the other end, hoping for something that’s never going to happen.
Helge: Here’s the thing to keep in mind. You don’t have the responsibility for their emotions and their reactions. You only have responsibility for your own emotions and your own reactions. By writing that message, you’re taking responsibility for your emotions. That you’re not feeling it with this person. You’re taking responsibility for that, and you’re informing that person of that. How they choose to react to that message has nothing to do with you. They’re not a reflection of who you are.
Joachim: As long as you try to give the message in a respectful manner.
Helge: Yeah, you don’t have to be callous about it. Be respectful. Do it in a polite [manner,] and if they choose to react negatively, that doesn’t reflect back on you. That takes away a lot of the energy or responsibility one might feel for the other person. That’s part of dating, and I think that if you don’t want to accept that part of dating, then you’re part of the problem, rather than the solution.
Part of the problem is that dating has devolved to the point we [are at] now. Start by setting an example for others. Everybody have a responsibility for this, but over time that would make dating culture a bit more positive. A bit more encouraging.
Joachim: It really links back to this old saying: “Be the change you want to see in the world.”
Helge: Yeah, it does. It sounds maybe a bit naive. You might not be able to give them the closure they need, but at least you’re giving them [something] rather than just deleting the match and just going about your life. That’s way more hurtful for us and for society as a whole I think.
Joachim: Absolutely.
Well, what’s next for you in terms of romantic relationships, and as an author?
Helge: I’m very lucky. I met my girlfriend on Tinder. I’m actually very [much] in love right now. That’s been a huge blast. I’m very glad for that.
Joachim: Wonderful. Do you live together, or not yet? How old is this relationship?
Helge: Actually, we met on Tinder last year (2023). We took a break in January (2024), and then we met again randomly on a festival this summer (2024). Then both of us made a choice, and now we’re committed. That feels really nice.
Joachim: All right, fantastic!
Helge: I think that following my own advice from the book has been a huge part of it. Being vulnerable, making a choice, building something together, searching for those values that I find very important, that’s been a huge part of it.
In terms of the next project… Right now, I’m just enjoying the positive reactions that the book has provided me with. Meeting people such as you. Being able to discuss this topic, and my sincere hope is that this book could be someone’s light in the dark, someone’s motivation or be an inspiration for someone that finds dating really hard, or has lost hope. To tell them that it’s not hopeless. There are things that we can do. This is my contribution to dating culture as it is right now, and I’m hoping it will make it a little bit better for some people.
Joachim: That’s great, wonderful! Sounds like a great intent with the project, and I wish you all the best moving forwards both with the book and your relationship. It’s been a pleasure!
Helge: Thank you so much.
Joachim: How can people reach out to you, and where can they find you online?
Helge: I have an Instagram [account], which is my main source of contact. It’s called @hellsve, and is an open profile. If you buy the book, you can also find my Instagram handle there. If you end up reading the book, I would love to hear what people think about it. That would be great. I love talking about this topic, so if anyone have any questions or want to talk about something feel free to reach out.
Joachim: All right, excellent! We’ll leave the Instagram handle in the show notes as well. Thank you so much.
Helge: Thank you.
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